Grim Tales? Anyone? Bueller?

[Wulf Ratbane]

Let me chip in my vote for a Grim Magic book. Even with your system, the D&D spells don't have the right feel for a low magic game. I'd probably import CoC d20 or maybe tweak the Sovereign Stone magic system while waiting for you to publish it.

Yes, definitely something I felt while doing the work. It is not by accident that no spells are actually reprinted IN Grim Tales. (And frankly I am sure I will take some reviewer heat for that, somewhere, sometime.)

When changing the spellcasting system for Grim Tales, I had the clear option of changing the spellcasters themselves, or changing the spells. I opted to change the spellcasters so that the existing spell statblock, no matter the source, would still work in the game. Contrast this to, say, CoC d20, which has a different "cost" for every spell (be it sanity, ability scores, or both).

Gosh, there are a lot of resources for spells out there. One part of me wants to write all new "Grim" spells, but another part of me says that within the various iterations of spell statblocks, is there really that much room left to innovate? There are a LOT of spells out there already-- I feel I'd only be changing the flavor text.

Wulf

 

[2WS-Steve]

After Second World Sourcebook, I had already done that. Surprised you hadn't...

In my last campaign (which lasted for about two years) I went without defense bonuses. In part because it was almost all on the fantasy side and I wanted compatibility, and part because many of the players were either new to d20 or new to gaming in general and I wanted them to acclimate via the rules in their PHBs.

Also, I'm still a bit worried about escalating AC's even after merging out some of the bonuses. During the mid-levels I could see AC outstripping attack and slowing down the game. In retrospect that wouldn't have been a problem since I don't think any of my wussy players wore anything heavier than a chain shirt. But, had I been playing with my old group, I would have suffered...

One thing I hope for 4th edition is that class defense bonuses and special abilities like feats at each level becomes the standard in D&D because that makes it a lot easier to choose what level of magic, and other stuff, you want in your game.

Gosh, there are a lot of resources for spells out there. One part of me wants to write all new "Grim" spells, but another part of me says that within the various iterations of spell statblocks, is there really that much room left to innovate? There are a LOT of spells out there already-- I feel I'd only be changing the flavor text.

Wulf

That's very true. My problem is that they're all designed to balance against invisibility at level 2 and detect evil at level 1. What I should do is have a list of all of them then go through and assign new levels and categories (and delete some) according to the campaign style. But I'd prefer to pay someone else to do that

Another thing is that I enjoy having different flavors of magic. I like the way you have spells last until sunrise or sunset, or the next moon, in Ars Magica--that just feels more fantastic.

The problem with that is that I need to go out and buy a 200+ page campaign book to get the 30 or so pages of new magic system when what I really want is a small collection of 200+ page magic systems to import into my campaigns as I see fit.

Right now I think Elements of Magic and Codex Mysterium are the only books that do that. And the sad thing is that I occasionally see these posts where people complain that we don't need another magic system. What I don't need is another 30 page, underdeveloped magic system; but I'd love some fully developed ones.

Unfortunately of course, I don't know if the market would support it. Anyway, you'll get at least one sale should a Grim Magic rear its hoary head.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Steve,

You might include within the "variant magic systems" the PDF of the Arcana Unearthed magic system from Malhavoc Press, since the PDF is (or was) available separately from the whole print product.

Cheers

 

[Plane Sailing]

By the way, Steve... I'm still hoping to track down a copy of "Masters of Arms" somewhere!

 

[Azizar]

Should i buy this book ?

I created a homebrew setting with an almost exclusively pseudo-medieval technology level and a grim and realistic tone. It has lots of dark magic, but no flashy effects, no fireball slinging wizards but magic diseases and magic winds that kill and destroy or turn whole populations into undead and corrupt animals into monsters. I like humans to use magic but at a low level.

My setting has almost the same feel as the Warhammer setting, but the difference is that the races on my world have yet to cope with war. For thousands of years the races of the world of Greur lived peacefully and explored the world under guidance of The Guardians (celestials). The guardians are as gods to the races of greur, although the celestials say they do not deserve such a praise. But now the Guardians have abandoned the world. The earth trembled, vulcanos bursted. Whole landmasses sinked into the greats oceans. The seasons seem to be disrupted and crops are withering.. There are rumors of strange creatures and of 'undead' cities. Great Prophets with terrible power appeared out of nothing to spread their unholy Prophecies. They say it is because of great sins that the Guardians left Greur and that the celestials cursed the world before they left it. Greur is destined to destroy itself, so they say. But the races of this world are fighting off their doom, although fate seems ineviable. The races blame each other for the departure of the Guardians. And so the War is born, but, aside from some hunting bows and woodcutting axes, the people of Greur have no knowledge of weapons. But that soon changed.

The great gift the guardians gave to the races of the world, to build their homes and warm their hearts, was changed as the world was cursed. It now destroyed homes and killed loved ones. But in their misery the races found their weapon: The Great Gift 'Magic'.


I just have to find a system to incorperate my ideas (yes, I create a setting first and then look for a system to make it come to life.). Can you recommend this system and why ? I have to buy this book at an online store, because in my coutry rpg books are hard to come by, so any advice is welcome.

p.s I own the 3.5 phb, dmg and mm, read through them all and have a good grip on the basic rules.

 

[Krieg]

Having a good time here with your book, Wulf, and contemplating whether or not I want to make the full transition to defense bonuses in my next game.

One thing I noted about it is that while pitched as a low magic sourcebook it would work fine in a high magic game as well--just add the magic system of choice. The only thing a GM needs to be wary of is keeping the number of different bonus types for AC down.

Let me chip in my vote for a Grim Magic book. Even with your system, the D&D spells don't have the right feel for a low magic game. I'd probably import CoC d20 or maybe tweak the Sovereign Stone magic system while waiting for you to publish it.

I hate to off subject, but since you've stopped by...

Steve, is there any chance we'll be seeing the Rune Wardern any time soon?

Thanks!

(FYI I recomend SWS to just about anyone that will listen. lol)

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Can you recommend this system and why?

I'm not ignoring your question, but I am going to sit tight and see if anyone with less of an obvious vested interest can answer you first!

Wulf

 

[Azizar]

Ok, but can you answer this question then...

Ok, wulf, you have earned my respect with not trying to overwhelm me with smooth-talking. But i have another question. Can i use the monsters from the MM without much trouble or do i have to add defense bonuses and change spell-like abilities. Are their guidelines how to fit the standard monsters (like dragons) into a grim and dark campaign ?

 

[king_ghidorah]

I created a homebrew setting with an almost exclusively pseudo-medieval technology level and a grim and realistic tone. It has lots of dark magic, but no flashy effects, no fireball slinging wizards but magic diseases and magic winds that kill and destroy or turn whole populations into undead and corrupt animals into monsters. I like humans to use magic but at a low level.

This description sounds like a good fit for the GT rules. The rules provide a strong framework for running characters defined by skills, feats and talents, but with little magic. It allows for combat about as gritty as you want it to be, all with pretty standard d20 mechanics.

Magic, using the provided rules, is hard to master without sacrificing all of your talents to do so. For example, if a character worked very hard, he might be able to cast spells with a caster level of 9 by the time he reached 20th level. And even then, he would only learn spells the GM specifically made available in-game. Casting spell causes CON or STR damage, making the use of magic pretty dangerous in combat, further restricting magic use.

Note that this makes magic very costly to use and master, which does a lot to restrict it in the game. PC wizards will not be common-- and they may, in fact, be a poor choice to play for anyone but someone who really wants to roleplay the pursuit of magical knowledge and power.

If I can get my stuff together enough to get my campaign of the ground, I suspect that the only real focused sorcerous types in the game will be the bad guys. And I will try to make their magic to be unpleasant enough for the heroes to think twice before choosing to master it.

 

[BryonD]

Ok, wulf, you have earned my respect with not trying to overwhelm me with smooth-talking. But i have another question. Can i use the monsters from the MM without much trouble or do i have to add defense bonuses and change spell-like abilities. Are their guidelines how to fit the standard monsters (like dragons) into a grim and dark campaign ?

I can not speak for Wulf, but I would say that you can certainly use the MM as is. Defense Bonuses, for example, are built into the class features and are simply part of what makes 1 class level = 1 CR. So a monster in the MM could be used against a straight party of Grim Tales characters just the same as it could against a party of D&D characters.

Of course you need to recall that D&D assumes certain things about magic availability and the amount of gear a party has. So you would need to consider how appropriate each monster is on a case by case basis. But based on your campaign description above it seems like you are already on top of that.