Grim Tales? Anyone? Bueller?

RangerWickett said:
I haven't had a chance to read the book in full, Wulf, but so far I didn't see anything about spells and massive damage. While a high-level melee attack might hit for ~20 points on average, enough for a less-grim character to handle without a Massive Damage Save, a high-level attack spell could easily hit for 40 damage or more. Like I said, I haven't had more than a cursory look at the 'spell burn' rules, but if high-level spells are still around, they end up still being save or die, don't they?

I don't have the book handy, but I'm pretty sure it uses the d20 modern massive damage save rule, which is "save or be reduced to -1 hp", not "save or die". Heck, if you're using the expanded disabled region rule, a character at -1 hp might not even be unconscious, just disabled like a character at 0 hp.
 

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RangerWickett said:
I really like the horror rules. I want to use it, but so far in my current game I've had no great horror. Thankfully I'll be starting a new game, so I can tweak things a bit.

I don't see why you couldn't just throw a Horror check into your existing game. Treat it as a special ability of a new creature.

I do wish you'd had room for a few examples of the rules in action. It felt like a somewhat sizeable part of the book was redundant if you already had a core d20 rulebook, particularly the skills and some of the feats that are in both D&D and D20M. While I understand you including them for the completeness factor of having everything in one book, I would've rather seen a sample car chase, one or two examples of people going insane, and a couple of sample characters, particularly spellcasters, who are where the rules depart most from D20M.

First, obviously, reprinting a lot of the core rules is the nature of the beast. As sure as the sun rises, if I had not included it, someone would have complained about needing an extra rulebook during play.

Second, you should read those sections, even if you think you already know what they say. There are subtle changes throughout; in some cases, my own changes, and in other cases a further streamlining of the Modern rules with influences from the updates to 3.5.

Folks should feel free to email me questions and errata. I can't build an FAQ until the Q's are A. F.-- but it is something I am happy to do.

I haven't had a chance to read the book in full, Wulf, but so far I didn't see anything about spells and massive damage. While a high-level melee attack might hit for ~20 points on average, enough for a less-grim character to handle without a Massive Damage Save, a high-level attack spell could easily hit for 40 damage or more. Like I said, I haven't had more than a cursory look at the 'spell burn' rules, but if high-level spells are still around, they end up still being save or die, don't they?

Well, you'll note that the Massive Damage Save is always DC15; the DC is never based on the damage dealt (a variant popular in some circles).

That being the case, there's a couple of things to consider:

1) First, a deadly blow is a deadly blow. 20 points of damage is as likely to bypass most characters' thresholds as 30, 40, or 50. It's funny how hard it is to spend that feat on Improved Massive Damage Threshold. Lots of heroes walking around with a MDT under 20.

2) Second, if you read the thread above about caster level, I've already mentioned that spells that scale with caster level may be too just too damn good. (i.e, lean towards spells with fixed damage like Ice Storm, not variable damage like Fireball).

3) Third, spells should be deadly. As dangerous as they are to the caster, they need to be worth it when you cast them.

4) Fourth, caster level doesn't improve as quickly as you might think. Try a couple of sample builds through the talent trees. Barring artificial caster level increases (casting times, ley lines, cooperative magic, etc.), the best an adept can do is caster level 9th (funny how that works out) and at that point you've invested 9 of your 10 career talents into spellcasting. That's tough to do. I really don't see folks going through the trouble of trying to build an honest-to-god wizard with the low magic system GT gives them.

5) Fifth and last: Remember the Golden Rule of the Grim Tales spellcasting rules: Don't give the players any spell you don't want them to use. Be downright stingy with knowledge of magical spells. To a GT hero, magical ability basically doesn't exist. One spell, just one spell, should make as much difference to a GT hero as it would to a person in the real world who found a spell that actually worked.

If you could turn invisible at will, would you feel empowered, or would you feel embittered that you didn't know 20 other spells?

Spells need to seem that valuable.


Wulf
 

DanMcS said:
I don't have the book handy, but I'm pretty sure it uses the d20 modern massive damage save rule, which is "save or be reduced to -1 hp", not "save or die". Heck, if you're using the expanded disabled region rule, a character at -1 hp might not even be unconscious, just disabled like a character at 0 hp.

Also true. It didn't occur to me to be more specific, but technically it's not save-or-die, it's save or dying.

GT also uses the expanded disabled regions, too.

See there, RW-- you gotta read those rules! They might not say what you think they say! (Heck, in some cases they don't say what I thought I said... I'm trying to smother the errata!)


Wulf
 

*grin* I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I mean, I just got the book last night around 11pm. I'll look into it more as soon as I can. I hope my players will be willing to give it a whirl. And, hrm . . . I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that GT probably isn't that well balanced with the magic level in Elements of Magic. I'll have to think of how to fit the two together.

Oh, and I got your email. I know that if I weren't so busy with projects already scheduled, I'd probably do just as you suggest. It's something I'll put on my list for maybe later this year.
 

jaults said:
While I don't have GT yet, I will certainly be getting it soon. However, what lead me to post was this comment, ByronD. Mostly because I can think of two people I would put firmly in the aforementioned group of really, really good designers that can rebuild the tools themselves: Steve Kenson of Mutants and Masterminds fame, and Scott Gearin, from Alderac and Spycraft.

Who is your "genius?"

Jason

Heh

He would, in fact, be Steve Kenson.
 

Not that any self-respecting Dwarf would ever use such a weapon, but I didn't see a way to create a whip with your weapon creation rules. But looking at the rules, I figure a whip ought to do d4 damage. And it shouldn't have that stupid "can't hurt people in armor" restriction.

We'll say it's martial to start with. We'll fiddle with some of the rules a bit.

Base d8, 20/x3.

Making it large lets me get two abilities, but it's not large. So we'll just buy abilities like normal. Reduce the damage die 2 steps to get reach and to get the ability to trip. Reduce the crit multiplier to get the disarm bonus. We end up with a one-handed weapon, d4, 20/x2, with 10-ft. reach, ability to trip and disarm well. We'll make it exotic to get that extra 5 ft. of reach, and we'll even add in the penalty that using it incurs an Attack of Opportunity.

Hmph. Sorry, I just think whips are cool weapons, and they don't get enough respect in D&D.
 

I like the magic system. But I was wondering if you had considered any alternate downsides to magic.

For example the archetypal "unintended consequences" route. Where spells frequently do more and/or different things than you wanted, even if you get them right, and can be really unpleasant if you mess up.

I realize that this can be open-ended and thus hard to quantify into a game mechanic. But a system of guidelines and typical effects could be very interesting.

Just wondering if you had considered other approaches than the somewhat meta-game ability damage appraoch.

(Still think the book rocks)
 

BryonD said:
Just wondering if you had considered other approaches than the somewhat meta-game ability damage appraoch.

Hmm... I don't think ability damage is meta-game at all. I think there are plenty of archetypal references where magic "drains" the user.

Honestly, I didn't really explore other options-- I specifically wanted something that captured the feel of Call of Cthulhu.

One rule that ended on the cutting room floor was requiring a Horror check for learning a spell... Another rule dealt damage to a different ability score depending on the school of magic you were casting.

I'll get around to publishing all of these eventually. Any suggestions you want to submit, my email box is always open. ;)

Wulf
 

RangerWickett said:
Not that any self-respecting Dwarf would ever use such a weapon, but I didn't see a way to create a whip with your weapon creation rules.

The whip is not the only weapon that breaks the standard weapon templates.

Perhaps that's why it's one of the most misunderstood and errata'ed. ;)

But I am glad to see you're using the rules in the spirit they were intended-- toolkit. Springboard. Etc.


Wulf
 

RangerWickett said:
Not that any self-respecting Dwarf would ever use such a weapon, but I didn't see a way to create a whip with your weapon creation rules.
you must have never seen the movie "Hawk the Slayer." didn't the Dwarf character in that use a whip?

(of course, you did say "self-respecting Dwarf," which might eliminate him from consideration...) ;)
 

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