Grim Tales? Anyone? Bueller?

[Psion]

One rule that ended on the cutting room floor was requiring a Horror check for learning a spell... Another rule dealt damage to a different ability score depending on the school of magic you were casting.

I'll get around to publishing all of these eventually. Any suggestions you want to submit, my email box is always open.

I'll say this much: I don't like strength being the attribute of choice. It replicates the "GURPS muscle-mage" syndrome.

 

[BryonD]

Hmm... I don't think ability damage is meta-game at all. I think there are plenty of archetypal references where magic "drains" the user.

Honestly, I didn't really explore other options-- I specifically wanted something that captured the feel of Call of Cthulhu.

I apologize if that sounded critical. But, honestly, I think it is meta-game in CoC as well. As well as GURPS and probably other games. I will agree that it is archetypal in games. But I'm not aware of it being that way so much in literature.

I consider it meta-game because it seems to use a quantified ability simply because it is there. I mean, poisons and disease drain your stats because in real life or fiction you expect them to weaken, or paralyze, or flat out kill you.

I expect bad mojo to do something more interesting than that. Sure, it could make you sick and that ends up draining you anyway. And slapping this description on as a hand wave would be one solution. But it just isn't all that dark and mysterious if it simply makes you weak.

One rule that ended on the cutting room floor was requiring a Horror check for learning a spell... Another rule dealt damage to a different ability score depending on the school of magic you were casting.

I'll get around to publishing all of these eventually. Any suggestions you want to submit, my email box is always open.

Wulf

OK, I'll think about it.

I'd really love to see a system where spells can backfire (maybe even in funny ways, but mostly horrific) or they do extra things that the caster really would have prefered not happen. Whatever.

I'm fairly comfortable being self-confident in my game-smithing. But I know when I see work that is better than I can do...

 

[BryonD]

I'll say this much: I don't like strength being the attribute of choice. It replicates the "GURPS muscle-mage" syndrome.

I had not even thought of that yet....
You are correct there.

HEY!! I made your sig. That makes my day.

Also, thanks for the link to the pact system. That is pretty cool.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I expect bad mojo to do something more interesting than that. Sure, it could make you sick and that ends up draining you anyway. And slapping this description on as a hand wave would be one solution. But it just isn't all that dark and mysterious if it simply makes you weak.

Although it certainly wouldn't have fit my design criteria for Grim Tales, I'll consider a few things for the future that are a bit further outside the existing structure of d20.

But consider, any description you add as a "hand wave" will still have the underpinnings of d20. There are some things in the combat summary that might work-- fatigue/exhaustion/nausea-- but nothing as granular as ability scores. You've got a sliding scale between very crunchy and very descriptive, but to be fully utile, even at the most descriptive end of the scale you probably want some crunchy d20 "compatibility," for lack of a better term.

I think the many strata of Insanities listed in the book demonstrate this design constraint.

Grainy crunch is part and parcel of d20; and Grim Tales is particularly so. Not a lot of fluff in there covering up the rules. Stripping away the descriptive to lay bare the rules beneath is pretty much the driving philosophy.

I'll say this much: I don't like strength being the attribute of choice. It replicates the "GURPS muscle-mage" syndrome.

Definitely a concern, though I am not sure that every wannabe spellcaster will have the luxury of pumping their Strength. You can control this early on by keeping the point buy low (personally I like to just hand out the elite array and be done with it) but you can also control it very effectively just by keeping magic so rare that it's impractical to assign a big Strength score to a Smart hero (or vice versa).

You could tie the spell burn to Wisdom or Charisma (to represent a slow withdrawal into catatonia or loss of sanity) but then you double penalize the divine and wild adepts.

Of course then instead of the muscle mage syndrome, you have the wise mage syndrome, or the pretty mage syndrome, or the fast mage syndrome, tough mage syndrome, etc.

This sort of brings us back around to Bryon's dissatisfaction with tying it to attributes in the first place...

Wulf

 

[Psion]

Definitely a concern, though I am not sure that every wannabe spellcaster will have the luxury of pumping their Strength. You can control this early on by keeping the point buy low

What is this "point buy" you speak of?

(personally I like to just hand out the elite array and be done with it) but you can also control it very effectively just by keeping magic so rare that it's impractical to assign a big Strength score to a Smart hero (or vice versa).

True enough with the right sort of game, but I am also sort of picturing a game where a mage could reasonably have 3 or 4 spells.

You could tie the spell burn to Wisdom or Charisma (to represent a slow withdrawal into catatonia or loss of sanity) but then you double penalize the divine and wild adepts.

I could eliminate wild adepts. With magic being rare, I'm not sure that a dichotomy between spell types is needed.

I'll have to actually try it in play to see how it turns out. Probably won't be a problem as my players don't tend to minmax, but I could see it being a problem in more "minmaxy" groups. You know, the type WotC seems to make decisions around that vex me.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I could eliminate wild adepts. With magic being rare, I'm not sure that a dichotomy between spell types is needed.

The option needed to be there, and they definitely have their place.

If caster level is really, really important to you, wild adept is probably the best long term choice: You get your full caster level on any spell you know. Granted, you roll 1 more spell burn die than everybody else...

But you don't have to worry about being an arcane adept caster level 8th and then finding a really good divine spell and having to cast it as an untrained caster...

Wulf

 

[Psion]

The option needed to be there, and they definitely have their place.

Note that I wasn't trying to tell you how you should have written the book, but contemplating how I could massage the rules around for my own purposes.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Note that I wasn't trying to tell you how you should have written the book, but contemplating how I could massage the rules around for my own purposes.

No worries!

I'm not taking anything personal-- just enjoying the discussion and happy for a chance to let people know what I was thinking, if they're interested.


Wulf

 

[2WS-Steve]

Having a good time here with your book, Wulf, and contemplating whether or not I want to make the full transition to defense bonuses in my next game.

One thing I noted about it is that while pitched as a low magic sourcebook it would work fine in a high magic game as well--just add the magic system of choice. The only thing a GM needs to be wary of is keeping the number of different bonus types for AC down.

Let me chip in my vote for a Grim Magic book. Even with your system, the D&D spells don't have the right feel for a low magic game. I'd probably import CoC d20 or maybe tweak the Sovereign Stone magic system while waiting for you to publish it.

 

[Psion]

Having a good time here with your book, Wulf, and contemplating whether or not I want to make the full transition to defense bonuses in my next game.

After Second World Sourcebook, I had already done that. Surprised you hadn't...

One thing I noted about it is that while pitched as a low magic sourcebook it would work fine in a high magic game as well--just add the magic system of choice. The only thing a GM needs to be wary of is keeping the number of different bonus types for AC down.

Second World Sourcebook has a system for that...

Let me chip in my vote for a Grim Magic book. Even with your system, the D&D spells don't have the right feel for a low magic game. I'd probably import CoC d20 or maybe tweak the Sovereign Stone magic system while waiting for you to publish it.

Eh. I think they can, but I would agree you might be better off with some spells from variant magic books. (I just got Primer to Practical Magic, which has a spell failure system to boot, that has some spells that might fit well.)