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[Grim Tales] Spellcasting Questions
- Thread starter Yuan-Ti
- Start date
HeapThaumaturgist
First Post
We're running a GT-like magic system, maybe a little more pulp:
Instead of Spell Burn going to Con or Str:
Each spell does Level + 1 in d6 spell drain die (I.E. Cantrips, 1d6; 3rd level spells 4d6). In addition, after casting a spell you make a Fort. save vs. DC 15 or take a level of fatigue. Normal --> Fatigued --> Exhausted --> Unconcious.
Because you can go from Unc. to Exhausted with treatment, and from Exhausted to Fatigued with an hour of rest, a PC can cast several spells in a day, quite a few if he has a good Fort. save (rare), and will always be up and running again the next day (as opposed to laid up for a week waiting for stat damage to heal).
This is a very very different flavor, but seems to graft pretty easily onto the GT rules. We maintain a D20 Modern-esque Massive Damage Threshold save for Subdual damage taken in one shot. In addition, we don't have any drain resistance. So without alot of Con, anything 3rd or higher has a goodly chance of knocking you out regardless.
I built this system up for a PC of my own, as I wanted to run an occult-investigator type with some Call of Cthulhu spells, but without having to track stat damage on half my stats, and all the effects inherent on my skills and whatnot. The GM and I hashed on it for a while, it's working out pretty well. Fatigue sucks, though. (You can't run ... but the monsters can.)
--fje
Instead of Spell Burn going to Con or Str:
Each spell does Level + 1 in d6 spell drain die (I.E. Cantrips, 1d6; 3rd level spells 4d6). In addition, after casting a spell you make a Fort. save vs. DC 15 or take a level of fatigue. Normal --> Fatigued --> Exhausted --> Unconcious.
Because you can go from Unc. to Exhausted with treatment, and from Exhausted to Fatigued with an hour of rest, a PC can cast several spells in a day, quite a few if he has a good Fort. save (rare), and will always be up and running again the next day (as opposed to laid up for a week waiting for stat damage to heal).
This is a very very different flavor, but seems to graft pretty easily onto the GT rules. We maintain a D20 Modern-esque Massive Damage Threshold save for Subdual damage taken in one shot. In addition, we don't have any drain resistance. So without alot of Con, anything 3rd or higher has a goodly chance of knocking you out regardless.
I built this system up for a PC of my own, as I wanted to run an occult-investigator type with some Call of Cthulhu spells, but without having to track stat damage on half my stats, and all the effects inherent on my skills and whatnot. The GM and I hashed on it for a while, it's working out pretty well. Fatigue sucks, though. (You can't run ... but the monsters can.)
--fje
I am going to speak to my players about this to see what they think. At a minimum, I am planning on adding a feat something like this:
For the right campaign (i.e., low magic, but not really low magic), I may also use the Black Company spell drain method. Instead of taking 1d6 ability score damage, spellcasters take 1d6 nonlethal/spell level + some modifiers. The damage is recovered much more readily this way and is, of course, less debilitating. But for my first GT campaign, I like the ability drain.![:]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png "Devious :]")
For the right campaign (i.e., low magic, but not really low magic), I may also use the Black Company spell drain method. Instead of taking 1d6 ability score damage, spellcasters take 1d6 nonlethal/spell level + some modifiers. The damage is recovered much more readily this way and is, of course, less debilitating. But for my first GT campaign, I like the ability drain.
HeapThaumaturgist
First Post
We've been using the BlackCompany magic rules in the Grim Tales game I run on Sundays.
The drain is, generally, nothing to worry about. Spell Energy is 1 + Con + 1-2 per Magnitude. + any from the Spell Energy Reserve feat. My caster has 6 Spell Energy ... 1d8 + X doesn't amount to a whole lot of drain over the course of a day.
TIME is the issue with BC. DCs are so HUGE that casting anything more than a 0th level equivalent spell in less than three rounds is impossible on the fly. Most combats end with the caster having burned one of his three memorized effects for 1d8 + 7-8 Drain and a single On The Fly effect for something like 1d8 + 3-4 damage.
We're finding the prohibitive casting times to be a real problem with that system. It's cool, and wizards are useful outside of combat, but the DCs always push even the simplest effect outside of a useful casting time. It goes from Useless to 6 Actions in no time.
--fje
The drain is, generally, nothing to worry about. Spell Energy is 1 + Con + 1-2 per Magnitude. + any from the Spell Energy Reserve feat. My caster has 6 Spell Energy ... 1d8 + X doesn't amount to a whole lot of drain over the course of a day.
TIME is the issue with BC. DCs are so HUGE that casting anything more than a 0th level equivalent spell in less than three rounds is impossible on the fly. Most combats end with the caster having burned one of his three memorized effects for 1d8 + 7-8 Drain and a single On The Fly effect for something like 1d8 + 3-4 damage.
We're finding the prohibitive casting times to be a real problem with that system. It's cool, and wizards are useful outside of combat, but the DCs always push even the simplest effect outside of a useful casting time. It goes from Useless to 6 Actions in no time.
--fje
Heap,
What about prepping spells in advance under the BCCS rules...is anyone doing that? It is a way around the potentially crippling time elements for big effects with the trade off of substantially increasing DC if you make some bad concentration rolls.
Of course, if you prep ahead of time and it is a really critical spell, you can always burn a point of spell energy to keep it around.
~ OO
What about prepping spells in advance under the BCCS rules...is anyone doing that? It is a way around the potentially crippling time elements for big effects with the trade off of substantially increasing DC if you make some bad concentration rolls.
Of course, if you prep ahead of time and it is a really critical spell, you can always burn a point of spell energy to keep it around.
~ OO
Heap,
One more question. I am putting together a GT/BCCS Hybrid one-shot for the next NC Game Day. How did you handle spell/talent acquisition and caster level? I am thinking about making BCCS spells/talents available to smart/dedicated/charismatic heroes as a talent, but am struggling with how best to handle caster level (for achieving magnitude increases, etc).
Any recommendations?
Thanks,
~ OO
One more question. I am putting together a GT/BCCS Hybrid one-shot for the next NC Game Day. How did you handle spell/talent acquisition and caster level? I am thinking about making BCCS spells/talents available to smart/dedicated/charismatic heroes as a talent, but am struggling with how best to handle caster level (for achieving magnitude increases, etc).
Any recommendations?
Thanks,
~ OO
HeapThaumaturgist
First Post
Oh, he preps spells. But it's a very flavor-rich game, and he's "Ship's Wizard" for a flying trade ship, so he's always sure to prep at least one big Air Magic blow, in case they need to travel against the wind or run from pirates. That leaves him 2 preppable slots for "combat castings". He then memorizes an emanating Force AC spell, and a burst Force damage spell. Both of those are nice, maybe equivalent to 2nd level D&D spells in power. (+3 AC to the whole party for 3 rounds.)
But if the situation doesn't call for either of those spells, he's sort of useless.
Part of the problem is how he built the PC. He's a caster. A CASTER. His dump stats are Str and Dex, both at 8, as he put everything else into Con, Int, and Cha. So he can't fight, can't defend himself, can't shoot, etc. He pops off his two spells that day and he's shot for combat.
Now, if you've got a minute or two and need a small hurricane, he's your man. Hopefully he'll find more to do once he has more talents. They recently saved a grove full of dryads, so he's going to pester them about learning plant magic.
--fje
But if the situation doesn't call for either of those spells, he's sort of useless.
Part of the problem is how he built the PC. He's a caster. A CASTER. His dump stats are Str and Dex, both at 8, as he put everything else into Con, Int, and Cha. So he can't fight, can't defend himself, can't shoot, etc. He pops off his two spells that day and he's shot for combat.
Now, if you've got a minute or two and need a small hurricane, he's your man. Hopefully he'll find more to do once he has more talents. They recently saved a grove full of dryads, so he's going to pester them about learning plant magic.
--fje
HeapThaumaturgist
First Post
To reply to your other part, which I'm sorry I missed:
Magnitude I'm handling with Talents available to Smart/Ded/Charismatic. We have a pure-class Smart caster. Dabbler is a feat that anyone can take (nobody did). Student of Wizardry / 1st Mag / 2nd Mag / 3rd Mag are all a Talent tree, with Student of Wizardry giving its usual magnitude jump along with making the magic skills class skills (though we removed Resistance, because none of us liked it for our game). 1st Magnitude is the next talent in the tree, with a pre-req of 8 Ranks of Use Magic, meaning he can pick it up at 5th level (Wizards get it at 4th level). Same sort of thing with 2nd and 3rd, each with Use Magic ranks putting them at one level AFTER a BCCS wizard would pick them up as class features.
Beyond that, I left Talent as a feat and put it on the Bonus Feat list for all three classes. Our 5th level caster is 1st Magnitude with Spell Energy Resevoir and Talent x 2 (Air and Force). I added Use Magic to the Savant list and removed the Talent Focus feat, just to see how it would work. I wanted a little more power in my game. It's DIFFERENT magic, not so much LOW magic. We also have a Craft Magic system where pretty much anybody can learn to make magical items based on crafting rolls and XP costs alone. Currently he can cast alot of pretty powerful effects, as he has (effectively) Talent Focus to any spell he has. But, as I said, casting times keep him very much in check during combat.
--fje
Magnitude I'm handling with Talents available to Smart/Ded/Charismatic. We have a pure-class Smart caster. Dabbler is a feat that anyone can take (nobody did). Student of Wizardry / 1st Mag / 2nd Mag / 3rd Mag are all a Talent tree, with Student of Wizardry giving its usual magnitude jump along with making the magic skills class skills (though we removed Resistance, because none of us liked it for our game). 1st Magnitude is the next talent in the tree, with a pre-req of 8 Ranks of Use Magic, meaning he can pick it up at 5th level (Wizards get it at 4th level). Same sort of thing with 2nd and 3rd, each with Use Magic ranks putting them at one level AFTER a BCCS wizard would pick them up as class features.
Beyond that, I left Talent as a feat and put it on the Bonus Feat list for all three classes. Our 5th level caster is 1st Magnitude with Spell Energy Resevoir and Talent x 2 (Air and Force). I added Use Magic to the Savant list and removed the Talent Focus feat, just to see how it would work. I wanted a little more power in my game. It's DIFFERENT magic, not so much LOW magic. We also have a Craft Magic system where pretty much anybody can learn to make magical items based on crafting rolls and XP costs alone. Currently he can cast alot of pretty powerful effects, as he has (effectively) Talent Focus to any spell he has. But, as I said, casting times keep him very much in check during combat.
--fje
HeapThaumaturgist said:
Heap,
Thanks for posting this...this helps alot. Let me just make sure I understand your set-up:
- Dabbler - As written in BCCS, general feat
- Student of Wizardry (S/D/C talent) - Use Magic + other magic skills become class skills, Use Magic bump
- 1st Magnitude (S/D/C advanced talent, prereq - SoW, 8 ranks Use Magic) - Provides magnitude Use Magic bump
- 2nd Magnitude (S/D/C advanced talent, prereq - SoW, 1st Mag, 12 ranks Use Magic) - Provides magnitude Use Magic bump
- 3rd Magnitude (S/D/C advanced talent, prereq - SoW, 1st Mag, 2nd Mag, 16 ranks Use Magic) - Provides magnitude Use Magic bump
- Spell talents are on bonus feat list for S/D/C...are they also available as regular feats, subject to magnitude prereq?
Does this about do it? I also like the idea about adding Use Magic to the Savant talent. It doesn't sound like you played around with aspects of magic (ie, different controlling ability scores for S/D/C). I am assuming that Use Magic remains a CHA-based skill, etc.
Any other tips for the cross-over? I will probably include some fetish items for the caster's in the one-shot, since I will be upping the magic power level a bit.
Thanks,
~ Old One
