Group Campaign Creation - How does this make you feel as a player?

Rechan

Adventurer
I just came out of a disaster of a game. It devolved into PC vs PC, Player vs. Player, blackmail, spying. Among other things, because PC goals, backgrounds, and personality, simply Did Not Mesh. This wasn't a problem during the first adventure, but afterwards, when the PCs had more free reign and could decide what they wanted to pursue.

After drinking the Spirit of the Century kool-aid, I've finally made a decision on how I want to run my next campaign. I'm going to detail my plan to you, and I'd like you to tell me if it seems unreasonable, scary, or too time consuming or whathaveyou as a player.

The basis I'm coming to here is that RPGs are a team effort, it's a team game. So it should work as a team from the beginning.

Step 0: Everyone sits at the table.

Step 1: Deciding a Campaign.

The group decides what kind of campaign they want to play in. For instance, I'm comfortable with: Anti-Hero, City-based, Arabian/Desert, Jungle, Exploration, Standard Points of Light Fantasy, a class-based game (Thief campaign, Arcane campaign, Church based) etc. I don't want "Epic Save the World/destroy the artifact" type thing.

This is where the group talks about what kind of elements they like. Horror, grittiness, humor, how fantasy is your fantasy. So that I, the DM, can gauge what everyone wants, expects, etc.

Also, do you want the game to be focused on adventures that are just handed to you, hooks that snag you, or do you want it driven by your character's goals. Such as, if your character wants to be a Lord who builds a stronghold and carves his way, then you have to act upon those. (And if this is the case, everybody has to submit goals for their character).

Step 2 Fleshing Out a Starting Point Together.

Once the Setting is decided, then the group fleshes out the starting area. Let's say, the country, or the starting town/city + 100 square miles.

That's right. Everyone at the table can point at the map (so to speak) and say "There's this here". Like a haunted forest, or here be humanoid x that have carved out a specific area as their territory. They have control over the town, like how the town was founded on the footsteps of a wizard's academy, or it's a frontier at the edge of the Untamed Wilds, or it's built ontop of a necromancer's crypt. This includes legends, history, etc.

I imagine I could mettle out how much everyone can contribute; everyone gets 20-25%. I get veto power, and I have the power to add more, or twist what they believe they are creating (for instance the haunted forest isn't haunted, but a cabal of illusionists and trickster fey control it, and everyone in the surrounding area BELIEVES it's haunted).

This way, everyone feels as though they are contributing to the setting, that they are familiar with it to a degree, so that it feels more real that way.

Step 3 Creating Characters as a group.

That's right, I'm suggesting that characters are created as a group. Not that people tell you what to play, but that everyone can announce what role/class they want. That players can help eachother with background. Everyone knows what everyone is doing, and others can bounce ideas of your background or personality off of one another, helping enrich the process. If you want to play a weird race, that's fine; it's just gotta have a reason for being there, and that reason can be further facilitated by meshing your background with the starting area, or the other PCs.

This is not "We all individually make our characters in the same room, or spend three hours looking at a book." This isn't a matter of crunch. It's everything else that the crunch sits on top of.

This has three rules:

1) Your background, and thus your character, needs to be worked in with others somehow. You and you were trained by the same guy. You and you are related by marriage by your uncle. And so on.

This way, everyone is on the same page with their characters. You begin play knowing one another, or at least being acquainted. More importantly, you have more of a reason to work with and stay with the other characters.

2) Your background, and thus your character, needs to be tied somehow to what has been fleshed out on the map. Thus, if someone created an Order of wizards, or created a hermit sorcerer, then your mage ought to be worked into that order or be taught by that hermit somehow.

This way, everyone is tied to the starting area, and they feel as though they are a part of the world they helped create. And it makes the things they created more important.

3) Secrets are allowable. But under one of two caveats: 1) Your secret involves someone else or something that involves the group itself (i.e. I'm really your sister, separated at birth). This way, it isn't just about Your character, but it brings everyone else into it, and makes it more. Or, 2) You tell the other players your secret. But your characters don't know. Thus the group can get in on enriching the secret's exposure, so the characters are surprised.


What do you think, EnWorlder? Is this too much to expect from players, or too much democracy and group exposition? The one big flaw I feel in this is the amount of TIME that it takes to do all of this, even before you have Session 1. On the other hand, it helps foster a group that will work together, and it puts everyone on the same page as far as expectations, and desires.

The other threat is the guy who doesn't make it to that session, so he's on the outside the entire time.
 

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This could work very well for some groups. As you point out, there may be players who don't want the responsibility/time commitment involved in this-- depending on your group, this may be a problem.

I would also be very, very wary of the "I can twist what you made" idea (described in Step 2). If someone else creates something and cares about it, twisting it can make it worse than not there at all. "I thought a haunted forest would be cool, but instead I have to deal with these stupid illusionists. That was never what I wanted, but everyone else got their cookies..." You may do better applying a "yes, and..." principle.

"Yes, and..." means that you accept anybody's contribution (maybe unless it absolutely has to be vetoed, in which case you do that openly, quickly, and cleanly). But everyone can then add to it. If Sally says "There's a haunted forest over here," Bob can't say "no, there isn't" or "it's not really haunted." But he can say, "right, and it's ruled over by a group of undead treants that were created when the goddess of undeath murdered the god of trees." And then you can think and either say or reveal in play "hmm, and some followers of the god of fire want to burn down the forest to stop the undead, but they're opposed by druids who want to cure the forest, not kill it." To many people, twisting their creations devalues their contributions. Adding to it with a "yes and..." philosophy makes it collaborative.
 

Yes my group typically makes character this way. Though we allow secrets as long as the GM believes it could and would be a secret from the others. Also we don't require the backgrounds to be closely tied together, they just have to share general backgrounds of the area.

But other than that, yeah that is fairly close to how my group has been doing it now for many years.
 

As a player, I love involvement in creating the campaign (comes from my missed days as a DM). But having said that, my level of anal-retentive involvement does not extend to most people and therefore I think the above (while good) would ultimately lead to too much time, group 'discussion', and possibly causing the people with the least attention span to lose interest (since they wouldn't contribute once their thoughts started to wander).

To use a rather weak analogy -- when I'm at work and I call a meeting with my staff to discuss how to proceed on a given project, I listen to the ideas but then I (as their manager) have to decide how we'll proceed and then run with it. If I do make the mistake of letting the employees get too involved, we literally end up in the conference room discussing every little detail for hours (or one person dominates the conversation and the others sit there twiddling their thumbs thinking of who-knows-what while pretending to be interested and involved. (Obviously, it's a different thing if you're only talking 2-3 people, but once you start getting to 5+ people it's just too much democratic noise and less play time)

Some my general thoughts (since you asked) :)

Step 0: First consider your players -- do you have a couple who are quiet or may feel too intimidated to openly share if others are going to be more vocal than they are? On the flip side, is EVERYONE vocal? If so, there will be too much debating and less action.

Step 1: I'd say make step 1 more of a toss out question and listen to the feedback. Basically, a brainstorm session -- listen to input and ideas, but no judging (from you or the other players) and don't settle on anything specific while with everyone.

Take the feedback and you come up with the best option you can to include what came up the most and as many of the smaller items as you can reasonably accommodate.

If you have players who are quieter or more easily intimated (as stated in step 0), you may want to just make this a question tossed out over email, phone, or one-on-one rather than in a group. This just gives more introverted or hesitant people a chance to respond with less fear.

Step 2: Depending on your personal nature, step 2 and step 3 may be better switched (or left in the order you have it) -- all depends on if you(and players) are more comfortable with making a starting point based on character backgrounds or making a starting point and then have the character backgrounds accommodate it.

Step 3. Everyone creates characters at different speeds -- some will churn out 100 while others are still working on 1. You will want to avoid the slower players feeling rushed and the faster players from being bored. Based on my own experience back in the day, I often found it best to let the actual churning of characters to be done on everyone's own... that's not to say they can't talk in a group to come up with the basic concepts first, but that the actual writeups and feat selection, etc should be at everyone's own pace.

So having said that, maybe have everyone discuss concepts together and then they can go home and churn out their PCs (and if you already have a starting point from step 2, then have them each incorporate it in their background somehow as to why they are there or something).

Alternatively, have everyone prepare 2 (or 3 if some individual wants to have an extra option) PCs on their own, leaving the "fluff" to a minimum. Then, when everyone gets together as a group they can talk about what concepts they want to play, everyone picks one from what they created before, and then as a group they fill in the fluff and background together.


Anyway, just my random thoughts... hope it helps.
 

I like it.

I suggest a "No" list. "No gnomes", for example. Or "No ninjas". Things that you just don't want to see in the game.
 

First, be aware I don't HAVE a group to do the whole 3 step process with. Or at least, players to take into account. This is just me putting my cart before the horses. :)

With that said, I did do the step 1 and step 3 thing before: I asked everyone what kind of game they wanted, and everyone said "We're wandering gypsies and con artists, traveling around... conning people!" And then they all created their characters - one being the fake storyteller/diviner, one being the bellydancing pickpocket sorceress, and one being the dashing swasbuckler rake. (A barbarian joined the game later, but he actually fit in really really well).

Fba827 said:
do you have a couple who are quiet or may feel too intimidated to openly share if others are going to be more vocal than they are?
That's when you, the DM, play moderator. Like saying "Andy, you're rather quiet. But I think your contribution is important. What're you thinking?"

As for switching step 2 and 3, it depends. As I said, it could be as narrow as a town and the immediate area, or as broad as the country, so there's a lot of places to work with. So it doesn't necessitate everyone being from the Same Place, which can be stifling.

Part of the fun of character creation as a group though, when it comes to Speed, is the ability to have other people bounce ideas off of you, and help you flesh out your character. Meaning that if you make your guy real fast, then you can help others smooth theirs out, and ask them those important questions.

When it comes to the actual crunch, it's easier to say "Everyone work by yourselves", but the conceptualizing is where the group collaboration comes in.

As for the fear of shy players, it might also work to get the shy guys to work together. Or, to work with them on one side of the room while the more socially motivated folk can butt heads together.

Cerebral Paladin said:
"Yes, and..." means that you accept anybody's contribution (maybe unless it absolutely has to be vetoed, in which case you do that openly, quickly, and cleanly). But everyone can then add to it.
That is a really good point. Thank you.

LostSoul said:
I suggest a "No" list. "No gnomes", for example. Or "No ninjas". Things that you just don't want to see in the game.
That generally falls into the house rules section. Sort've like saying "Classes don't have alignment restrictions" or some other thing. But yeah, a "No -" is important.
 

That sounds really similar to how my group typically does things. Several of us DM; I run Eberron, another guy likes to do D20 Modern, another runs White Wolf (old school Mage at the moment). We often toss around campaign and character ideas casually, and when we come up with something we all find interesting we'll give it a try.

We've run a lot of "experimental" games that have only lasted a couple sessions, and just flat out abandoned campaigns in favor of greener creative pastures. The good stuff happens when everyone is into it; they make characters that have histories together, and they rough sketch background NPCs, places, families, organizations, villians, events and the like. Then I can incorporate those things into the world and help to flesh them out. I think the best stories happen when everyone contributes- the result is usually a lot richer and more engrossing.

I think creating characters as a group is generally the best way to go as well. At least knowing what the other players are doing lets you make a PC that can provide interesting dynamics with the other PCs, and you can make sure that your characters will make an effective group as you go through the campaign world.

The best PC interactions I've ever seen were in our Vampire the Masquerade game. Hardly anyone in the party got along, and by the end of the story our characters had completely derailed the campaign and made a ridiculous mess of their Unlives. The key was that all the players and the GM were all aiming for a dark and gritty game, and it ended up being endlessly entertaining!

Making sure that each PC will somehow contribute positively to the direction you all want the campaign to move in is essential to fun roleplaying.
 

Another potential threat to the Group Collaboration is that someone's cool idea is squashed by the collaborative. Or people may end up making "Peanut Butter and Jelly" characters - two dimensional, 'patch a hole that needs fixin' type instead of pushing the envelope or not really putting EFFORT into the creation process.

If your players aren't all starting FROM the same area, and it's instead a 'group brought together' or 'strangers meeting' type situation, here's something you can do: Ask your players for a 3 by 3 by 3; a list of NPCs.

Each PC lists:

3 Friends/Family/Allies
3 Contacts
3 Enemies.

Each gets a name, a detail of how you know them, what they do, etc.
 

I've done something similar. I had a campaign wrapping up after 5 years, and was starting another with many of the same players.

We all talked, both as a group and individually about what we'd want in a campaign and what worked/didn't work.

I also gave them the option of the same homebrew world or another. They wanted the same world. Quite understandable, since all of the player had helped to flesh it out to some degree or another.

That said, the actual campaign plots are better if the player discover it. That doesn't mean there can't be input like "I want political maneuvering", "less mysteries" or "more combat". But the overarching plots the players don't know. I also determined other points about the start - for example it was in an area the earlier campaign didn't touch, and it was 80 years later (this way the effects of their characters would have had time to become big, plus it kept things fresh for both me and them).

For characters, I borrowed from other GMs that everyone knew at least one other person. I could have enforced everyone knew at least two and made sure there was a continuous chain, but I didn't, to keep the "hey, we're all far from where we met but it just so happens I know you" factor down.

When 4e hits I'm planning on running a mini-campaign in a much different style (to use other DMing muscles). I'm not planning on doing the sit-down, this I'm planning on writing a blurb for it for my gaming friends, and then we can pick from those interested in the campaign.

Cheers,
=Blue(23)
 

You know its not just responcibility dodgers who dislike this kind of play.

I dislike because it detaches me from my character, if i get involved in the world making bits that kewl, but the world > character and there is all this stuff that i find great and fiddly and want to work with and then bam, i'm stuck in some character sheet where I can't realisticly do anything with it. Its a bit different in SotC but not that much (or at least those few times i played I never saw much difference between Gm/player division and a more trad game)

Its not a meta issue (as it is sometimes presented) , its not a responcibility issue, its a distraction from dude and how kewl he is, and maybe its really okay in a game where its not all about my dude and how kewl he is, but I can't think of one off the top of my head (and yes i more indie games that sotc so...)

(edit thought I should splain that perhaps i am a little less interested in exploration than your average gamer, just so you take my stuff with a grain of salt)
 

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