GSL questions for Scott Rouse and Mike Lescault

Orcus

First Post
xechnao said:
Business does not run only with the evidence you are asking about. Do you disagree SW is a bigger franchise than D&D? Other than our general perception there are no other hard evidence for us.

This is a silly bunch of comments. It has nothing to do with the thread. Please post elsewhere. And on top of that your argument is lame. Of course SW is a better property to own as a general matter. It is not a better property to own as a RPG, never has been. And I can tell you without any doubt that more people came to D&D from third party supplements that from the fact that SW was a d20 system game. SW did not add to D&D. I can tell you that from the horses' mouth, having talked to the D&D brand managers on this very issue (Ryan Dancey, Valterra, etc). They hoped SW would do that, it didnt. That is straight from the people who know. End of topic.

Please stop discussing that SW rubbish in this thread.
 

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xechnao

First Post
Orcus said:
This is a silly bunch of comments. It has nothing to do with the thread. Please post elsewhere. And on top of that your argument is lame. Of course SW is a better property to own as a general matter. It is not a better property to own as a RPG, never has been. And I can tell you without any doubt that more people came to D&D from third party supplements that from the fact that SW was a d20 system game. SW did not add to D&D. I can tell you that from the horses' mouth, having talked to the D&D brand managers on this very issue (Ryan Dancey, Valterra, etc). They hoped SW would do that, it didnt. That is straight from the people who know. End of topic.

Please stop discussing that SW rubbish in this thread.

Well, allow me to say then I never intended to discuss these rubbish in this thread, just state an opinion about a reason why Wotc and D&D perhaps has less to win with opening their system and more to lose this time around. Perhaps we come from a different POV regarding this one but I find hard to accept 100% your statements too. I mean, if you were 100% correct and since this time they are closing their license why wouldn't they seek a closer relation with third party supplementing lines like Sword & Sorcery or Paizo if they were that good for them? Kind of like "specialist games-forge world-..." for "games workshop"?
Besides, in the world of business it is a mistake to undouptfully believe and accept what every businessman tries to tell you.
 
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xechnao

First Post
Admiral Caine said:
I'm loathe to be critical of anyone after what I did earlier this week.. However, I'm thinking you're correct DaveMage.

I wouldn't want the WOTC Reps to return next week and become sidetracked by this 'Did Star Wars energize DnD' discussion.

Xechnao, may I ask the favor of you starting a new seperate thread elsewhere with your basic premise? This isn't intended to be disrespectful to you.. But I'd like to see us at least remain focused on the DnD GSL.

You are right. I am sorry and I ask to be excused. No other thread though.
 

Lizard

Explorer
Ranger REG said:
Hypothetically, what could have been done to make the d20 logo more valuable?

Promote the living crap out of it. Most gamers didn't "get" the D20 logo.

In retrospect, it probably would have been better to put some quality/rules consistency restrictions in the STL (not the OGL), and more strictly enforced it. Many "D20" products flagrantly violated even the minor content limits of the STL.
 

Orcus

First Post
Ranger REG said:
Hypothetically, what could have been done to make the d20 logo more valuable?

Here is how:

Make "d20 = D&D" and really hammer that home. They didnt do that. That made it less than important for us publishers. I hate to admit it, but we publishers didnt necessarily want an open game license. I love it, dont get me wrong. But what I really want is a license taht lets me make D&D compatible products and lets me say "compatible with D&D." WotC didnt want to do that, so they created this intermediary symbol, the d20 logo. So, frankly, to the extent the GSL allows me to say "D&D" or use some version of the D&D logo, I actually like it BETTER than the OGL. And if they are going to update the SRD to allow me to access future books, I like it BETTER than the OGL. But the good thing about the OGL is that it didnt limit products. It let you use the content and do what you want with it. To the extent the GSL doesnt do that, I will definately like the OGL BETTER.

But in the end, that is it. If "d20 = D&D" had been better established and advertised it would have worked better. Candidly, they should have simply let us say "Compatible with Dungeons and Dragons" and tied the STL to that phrase. We would have taken just about any restriction to have been able to say that.

But the d20 logo lost its value and meaning for many reasons: it wasnt just tied to D&D, it was tied to a system. "d20" also came to mean the products by third party publishers and that led to the decrease in value with the glut of products, some of which were not very good.
 

Orcus

First Post
Lizard said:
Promote the living crap out of it. Most gamers didn't "get" the D20 logo.

In retrospect, it probably would have been better to put some quality/rules consistency restrictions in the STL (not the OGL), and more strictly enforced it. Many "D20" products flagrantly violated even the minor content limits of the STL.

The quality/consistency rules WERE in the STL not the OGL. Which is why you had so many OGL-only products.
 

Ranger REG

Explorer
xechnao said:
IMO your focus is too narrow from a business perspective. Do you remember or know about the "satanist" period of D&D? It is not that satanists were potential roleplayers, it is the hype that boomed the commercial value of D&D.
Well, they say that there is no such thing as bad publicity.

But at least the hype above directly spotlighted D&D.

Star Wars d20 RPG doesn't directly spotlight D&D. It mentioned it as a brief "OBTW" blurb.
 

Cergorach

The Laughing One
@Clark
What I meant with the "GSL won't open up the rules as the OGL did" is that the GSL (probably) won't allow the reprint of the rules verbatim (such as the OGL allowed with the SRD). I find that a bad move from a consumers point of view (I'll elaborate in a second), but a brilliant move from a business perspective. Why do I think It's bad from a consumers perspective? If WotC decides on another edition, the then supplanted edition can't officially be supported anymore by third party publishers as it is now. In short, it doesn't allow for a fork in development, thus if you don't like the direction WotC is taking the game your out of luck. I'm certain that no significant portion of the D&D player base will stick with 3.x for long (too many gamers want the new bling-bling). From WotC's perspective the 'forking' of D&D is a bad thing, they don't want their flock diminished by different versions of their game.

Obviously WotC sees the advantage of integrating third party publications into their IP. That's why there they hint at opening up more of D&D, if that means mindflayers and beholders are opened up needs to be seen. While I hope that the GSL will be better supported then the OGL, similar promises were made by WotC employees when the OGL was released, after the initial rush of Psionics/Epic/Gods it became awfully quiet. The same might happen with the GSL, despite all the best intentions of the current WotC employees, I just hope there won't be a round of firing like there was after the 3E release.

@JohnRTroy
I highly doubt that WotC felt any negative effects that weren't canceled out by the positive effects from the 'free' releases of the SRD. Sure there are many folks that said and continue to say that they'll never need a PHB because they have the SRD. I'm certain that 99% of those folks would have been as happy to use a 'pirated' copy of the PHB/DMG/MM if the SRD weren't available for 'free'. The 'free' versions of the SRD were used as 'light' rulebooks, because WotC couldn't keep up with the technology curve. Their digital initiatives failed miserably (character generator) or were horrendously late (digital versions of the rulebooks). While their efforts this time around do seem better, so seemed their efforts for 3E (anyone who remembers what their toolbox would do, will see the features repeated with their new efforts). I don't know if WotC lost many sales to games such as Conan, Spycraft, M&M, etc. Because my 'common' sense tells me that a lot of the folks playing those games might very well have moved to other game systems if the OGL variant systems weren't created.

The ability to revoke the GSL for any other reasons the not following it, I see as bad! Very, very bad! Not only publishers invest an enormous amount of effort and money into third part product lines, so does the consumer. If for whatever reason WotC decides to end the license, it means no further third products can be made, a logical time for that to happen would be when 5E is introduced (possibly under yet another license, or worse, no license). With all the changes a company like WotC (and their parent company Hasbro) go through, I have serious doubts about how much one should invest in a game and licence that could be yanked at any time. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.

@General
I'm wondering if it would be prudent/profitable for third party publishers to release products under a dual license? But because in this case the licenses are connected to specific incarnations of a game system, it would need to be more then just dual licenses, the content related to the license would have to be different. Green Ronin separated their 'fluff' and their 'crunch' with their "Pirate's Guide to Freeport", they released a shorter rules booklet for True20 and D20, they could even release a 4E version. You would sell your customer effectively two books (the 'fluff' book and the 'crunch' book), the core product ('fluff' book) your trying to sell would reach a wider audience (more sales), the secondary product ('crunch' book) would share resources across multiple systems (art, layout, concepts, some writing). Most 4E third part designers would come from a 3.xE background, so should be intimately familiar with both systems, so they could develop for both systems. It would of course take more time to develop, and people would need to be paid for that work, the question is "Would the extra sales compensate the investment?". Not every product would benefit from this approach, but I think many would (a new ToH for example would work for both systems).
 

Oldtimer

Great Old One
Publisher
JohnRTroy said:
The free SRDs can be used as a replacement for their core products.
I can see that someone actually believing that would dislike the OGL. I don't really think, though, that the SRD was a replacement for the Core Rules in any way. The SRD was more like the free Quick Play rules you can sometimes download for free. The thing that gets you hooked. Seeing the SRD as competition to the PHB/DMG/MM is a serious mistake.

JohnRTroy said:
The OGL has no built-in expiration date or any sort of revocation clause. This is great for the licensees, but not so great for the licensor.
Except for the fact that it might be neccesary to actually get some licensees. If the GSL can be revoked at-will by WotC, I'll be amazed if they get any licensees.
 

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