D&D 5E [GUIDE] Dealing Death: Handbook of the True Assassin

[SubDude]

Any chance for an update on the material in Xanathar's?

I was wondering how you think Rogue 7/Ranger:Gloomstalker 11/Fighter 2 (with one more level somewhere for a ASI or Fighter archetype - Brute would be solid if you use UA) would compare with Fighter 11/Rogue 8 or another of your builds....

Gloomstalker gets you an extra attack in that first round of combat the earliest and the bonus to initiative is nice too, but it is a little MAD. Plus Darkvision (v. nice if you're human for the level 1 feat) and basically improved invisibility in darkness. I mean, that's pretty sweet too. Ranger also gives some spell-casting which can be useful.

My next character was going to be a Fighter (EK) 11/Rogue 9 Assassin... but now I'm thinking more like Rogue (A) 7/Ranger (GS) 11/Fighter 3 (Brute) though that does give fewer ASI....

I dunno. What're everyone else's thoughts?

I wouldn't consider anything from Unearthed Arcana, but now that Xanathar has formalized all of those except the brute....

I'm imagining Fighter 2 / Rogue 3 / HexBlade 1 / Gloom Stalker 3 / Paladin 11 elf with Elven Accuracy....
- Two base attacks, plus the bonus off hand attack
- Bonus to initiative +5 from dex, +2 from wis
- Critical hits on 19-20 and +6 damage per hit from hexblade
- Plenty of Smites available...
- Extra attack die on advantage
- Extra attack on first turn
- That is a first turn of three attacks plus the bonus attack. Throw in Action Surge for two more attacks makes 6. Even without surprise, the Elven Accurate / Hexblade's Curse combine to give you a 27% chance to roll a critical hit as long as you have advantage.....

Let's see...
Rapier = d8 / Dagger = d4
Hex or Hunter's mark = d6
Improved Smite = d8
3rd level Devine Smites (3 available) = 4d8 / 2nd level (3 available) = 3d8
Sneak attack (1 time) = 2d6
Dex mod +5
Proficiency bonus +6

First attack critical is 12d8+6d6+5+6 (86 average)
Second and third attack criticals (no sneak) is 12d8+2d6+5+6 (72 average - twice)
Bonus Action attack critical (dagger in off hand, 2nd level smites) is 8d8+2d6+2d4+5+6 (59 average)
Action Surge
Fourth and fifth main-hand attacks critical (2nd level smites) is 10d8+2d6+5+6 (63 average - twice).

Total average here for all five critical hits is 86+72+72+59+63+63 = 415.

Again, even without surprise, the combination above would give you about one critical hit out of every four regular attacks anyway. This would be a fun, if tricky and MAD class to play.


(This analysis was done quickly, so may be missing something.)

 

[DocSharpe]

Welcome to the forums, have some XP.
The more salient thing is that the sneak attack damage is once per turn. Using your action surge to get another attack adds only the same as your bonus action attack, or 66.

What he is likely getting at is the idea that sneak attack damage van be applied "once per turn", not once per round. How people use this is to find a way to attack outside of their turn, either by readying an attack with your Action Surge action or being granted one by someone else's ability (having a battlemaster buddy with you, for example).

 

[SubDude]

What he is likely getting at is the idea that sneak attack damage van be applied "once per turn", not once per round. How people use this is to find a way to attack outside of their turn, either by readying an attack with your Action Surge action or being granted one by someone else's ability (having a battlemaster buddy with you, for example).

I never thought of using action surge that way. Thanks!

 

[UnknownRogue]

Replying to Subdude -

I use the term ‘surprise round’ to refer to the first round of combat when the dm has determined that characters are ‘surprised’ and thus not able to take any movement action or reaction on their first turn. But you are right, technically this is just the first round of combat. While action surge doesn’t require a target to be surprised, exploiting it to deal a second auto-crit sneak attack with death strike does.

When you ‘hold an action’ you take that action as soon as the trigger you determine uccurs. This is mechanically defined as using your ‘reaction’ when it triggers, and uccurs during another character’s TURN, often within the same ROUND. A battle master /rogue can use riposte as a reaction for example and get another sneak attack in addition to the one they are allowed on their turn. This is what I’m referring to when I say your Action Surge reaction attack. Maybe there’s a better term for it?

I have a problem with how the OP does averages as it’s too specific to an arbitrary context so I go with max potential. If you think your build does better maybe show the math otherwise it’s just pulling numbers out of the air.

And I agree that the damage per round is valuable to consider in general but this thread focuses on nova damage and the ‘1 turn kill’ Assassination potential of different builds. FYI with martial adept feat and exploiting riposte for 2 sneak attacks/ROUND, this build can continue doing insane damage into the early rounds. But that’s another post...

 

[Yunru]

Anyone who has access to Elven Accuracy and isn't use it is an insane assassin, just FYI

 

[dleto1]

So assuming you can use UA an elven 4 assassin 16 brute does pretty good damage.
I will do the math sans magic items or haste to start with I will include sharpshooter and crossbow expert with a 20 dexterity I am also assuming elven accuracy to take the most advantage of our free advantage.

So we're going to be making 7 attacks during a nova round 3 from fighter 3 from action surge and 1 bonus
so we are obviously using a hand crossbow

14d6 (avg 49) from 8 auto crit hand crossbow attacks
4d6 (avg 14) from sneak attack auto crit
14d8 (avg 63) from 8 auto crit brute dice
70 sharpshooter damage
112 devastating critical 16 dmg per crit
35 dmg from 5 dexterity across 7 attacks

So our avg damage not factoring accuracy is 343 during a surprise nova round using extra attack and no other resources.

If we assume pretty standard lvl magical equipment a +3 hand crossbow, and a manual of quickness of action we add
7 extra damage from 1 extra point of dexterity modifier across 7 attacks
21 extra damage from the +3 crossbow across 7 attacks

So now our average damage is 371

If we further add in a haste action from our friendly neighborhood wizard
2d6 hand crossbow
2d8 brute force dice
10 sharpshooter damage
16 devastating critical
3 dmg from +3 hand crossbow
6 dmg from 6 dexterity
we add another 51 average damage

So our total average damage during a surprise round with 8 attacks 22 dexterity and a +3 hand crossbow is 422 and we still haven't used any class resources other than action surge.

 

[SubDude]

So assuming you can use UA an elven 4 assassin 16 brute does pretty good damage.
I will do the math sans magic items or haste to start with I will include sharpshooter and crossbow expert with a 20 dexterity I am also assuming elven accuracy to take the most advantage of our free advantage.

So we're going to be making 7 attacks during a nova round 3 from fighter 3 from action surge and 1 bonus
so we are obviously using a hand crossbow

14d6 (avg 49) from 8 auto crit hand crossbow attacks
4d6 (avg 14) from sneak attack auto crit
14d8 (avg 63) from 8 auto crit brute dice
70 sharpshooter damage
112 devastating critical 16 dmg per crit
35 dmg from 5 dexterity across 7 attacks

So our avg damage not factoring accuracy is 343 during a surprise nova round using extra attack and no other resources.

If we assume pretty standard lvl magical equipment a +3 hand crossbow, and a manual of quickness of action we add
7 extra damage from 1 extra point of dexterity modifier across 7 attacks
21 extra damage from the +3 crossbow across 7 attacks

So now our average damage is 371

If we further add in a haste action from our friendly neighborhood wizard
2d6 hand crossbow
2d8 brute force dice
10 sharpshooter damage
16 devastating critical
3 dmg from +3 hand crossbow
6 dmg from 6 dexterity
we add another 51 average damage

So our total average damage during a surprise round with 8 attacks 22 dexterity and a +3 hand crossbow is 422 and we still haven't used any class resources other than action surge.

As none of the other builds include any magic weapons or buff spells, you shouldn't include yours here either. It just makes the comparisons faulty. Still, 343 is an exceptional surprise round nova.

Looking at the Brute in the UA, I (as DM) would never allow "brute force" to be used on a ranged weapon that didn't have the "thrown" property, and I suspect that if it is ever published it will only apply to melee weapons. At any rate, if your DM allows it, you've got yourself a pretty fantastic assassin build.

 

[WixOnWixOff]

Not sure if I'm missing common knowledge here, but can someone explain the breakdown of the math? Here is an example from the first stat block for Fighter 17/Rogue3:

6*(.84*23) + (.84*12) + (1-.16^7)*14
= 140

I know the 23 comes from the combination of the auto-crit weapon and superiority dice with the dex modifier on top. What is the .84 referring to? And the 1-.16^7? And the 12 and the 14? I'm guessing it's an attempt to factor in chance to hit normalization with advantage or something, but it would be nice to see how these numbers are being generated. Any insight is appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

 

[WixOnWixOff]

Also, how are we feeling in general about the Brute subclass feature that unlocks at Fighter 15:

Devastating Critical
Starting at 15th level, when you score a critical hit with a weapon attack, you gain a bonus to that weapon’s damage roll equal to your level in this class.

Combine that with the auto-crit functionality of Rogue's Assasinate:

Assassinate
Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.

Do we think that Devastating Critical would trigger on EVERY hit made against a surprised enemy with Assassinate in effect?

If it does, the 7 attacks in one round that the OP focuses on (Attack Action + 2 extra attacks, Action Surge + 2 extra attacks, and second weapon bonus attack) gives us 105 extra damage at Fighter level 15. Plug that into the formula to account for hit %, and that's still an insane amount of modifier damage.

Thoughts?

 

[SubDude]

I wouldn't count on the (UA only) Brute being allowed, but if it is that would be a pretty devastating nova round.