D&D 5E [GUIDE] Inquisitor Lim's Bladesinger and Wizard Guide: Xanathar's Edition

[Fox Arkenrath]

I'm confused. In the guide, it describes Booming Blade as "Hit a target, do regular melee weapon damage, then do 1d8 scaling tier minus 1 thunder damage. If they willingly move, even to reposition themselves, they take an additional 1d8 scaling thunder damage." Is this an error? I don't see where BB does 1d8-1 thunder damage in addition to melee damage if the target doesn't move. Am I missing something?

 

[NADRIGOL]

I'm confused. In the guide, it describes Booming Blade as "Hit a target, do regular melee weapon damage, then do 1d8 scaling tier minus 1 thunder damage. If they willingly move, even to reposition themselves, they take an additional 1d8 scaling thunder damage." Is this an error? I don't see where BB does 1d8-1 thunder damage in addition to melee damage if the target doesn't move. Am I missing something?

The "minus 1" refers to number of d8's not the actual damage. At first level / damage tier it does no initial thunder damage (0d8 or [1-1]d8), and 1d8 damage on a move. Those each increase by 1d8 per tier. 0d8 plus 1d8 per tier might be a more clear way of stating the initial on-hit thunder damage.

 

[Fox Arkenrath]

Thanks! Yes that was very confusing.

 

[Wm Long]

Great Guide! Thank you and all those who you referenced, for all your hard work!

 

[Rofel Wodring]

I might have to bump up Shadow Blade some. Maybe it's because I'm playing (yet another) Bladesinger in Out of the Abyss, but ever since I copied that spell using downtime that spell has been amazingly strong for a 3rd-level spell with Extra Attack. I can easily dish out 6d8+8 damage in a round, which is seriously like hitting someone with blight damage every round for the cost of a third-level spell slot. Haste, by contrast, would give me a 3d8+12, though Haste has its own advantages. And because it's OotA it usually comes packaged with advantage, to boot.

 

[Rofel Wodring]

So what are other peoples' experiences using Shadow Blade? I recently got up to 9th level on (yet another) Bladesinger character and this is a really powerful spell, especially in conjunction with effects such as Warcaster and a teammates' Haste. The advantage in dim light comes up more often than you think (and enables combos such as attacking in a Warlock's darkness or in a Fog Cloud) and the blade being psychic damage is VERY helpful when you don't have a magical item.

To me, it in a big way solves the 'melee offense gap' of levels 9 - 14, especially if you don't burn spell slots. I've been one of the targets of a Twinned Haste and throwing down with a 12d8+9 is very, VERY strong at level 9. It's endgame damage.

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

So what are other peoples' experiences using Shadow Blade? I recently got up to 9th level on (yet another) Bladesinger character and this is a really powerful spell, especially in conjunction with effects such as Warcaster and a teammates' Haste. The advantage in dim light comes up more often than you think (and enables combos such as attacking in a Warlock's darkness or in a Fog Cloud) and the blade being psychic damage is VERY helpful when you don't have a magical item.

To me, it in a big way solves the 'melee offense gap' of levels 9 - 14, especially if you don't burn spell slots. I've been one of the targets of a Twinned Haste and throwing down with a 12d8+9 is very, VERY strong at level 9. It's endgame damage.

So 3d8+3 x 2 without someone else casting haste on you (already concentrating on shadow blade) or 45 damage on average assuming hits at level 9.

A 5th level cleric beside him wades in with spirit guardians (3d8) a spiritual weapon (1d8 +4) and toll the dead cantrip (2d12) for 57 average damage. This is level 5 mind you. At level 9, they can use a 5th for spirit guardians and a 4th for spiritual weapon. Average damage goes up to 71.5 per round. 76.5 if they are from knowledge/light/grave/nature domain.

That's more than the bladesinger does even if someone else is buffing him with haste. By a fair bit.

At endgame it will be a lot higher than that. This is just basic stuff with any straight cleric, no special tricks or buffs.

 

[Rofel Wodring]

Treantmonk, I think you need to redo that calculation. Level 2 Spiritual Weapon / Level 3 Spirit Guardians is 35 DPR per round and honestly it's going to be less since it A) relies on two Wisdom saves and B) requires two rounds to set up. Level 5 Spirit Guardians / Level 4 Spiritual Weapon at level 11 gets you to 56 DPR, 61 with certain domains -- at the cost of forcing you to put your DPR for the first round (since all you can do out of the combo is cast Spirit Guardians) to a much less impressive 22.5 DPR. Don't get me wrong, that's good damage -- the frontliners struggle to put up that much damage by round two even with help from GMW/Sharpshooter. But a level 5 Shadow Blade in a level 11 Bladesinger's hand does 8d8 + 1d6 (offhand, keep a mess of shortswords on your person and drop them when you want to cast) + 8 damage, 49.5 DPR on a full attack. At level 14, that shoots up to 61.5 DPR, assuming 16 or 18 DEX and 20 or 18 INT.

And unlike the cleric, they'll be getting their full DPR more often since they'll be using considerably fewer resources -- with Contingency and Arcane Recovery, they can use this trick for 4 combats while still keeping their level 6 and 4 slots open. 5 if they don't mind blowing a level 6 spell slot. The cleric is done after 2 combats. 3 if they don't mind burning a 6th-level spell slot and using nothing higher than level 3 spells for the rest of the day.

 

[Raif]

With the Eberron release we got the new double scimitar. I know, it's 2 handed, but lets say that your DM handwaved the 2 handed property for this specific weapon for Bladesong purposes (RP purposes, elven blade, elven tradition etc) and gave you a free feat at 1st level (everyone got this) so you had high elf with the DBS and the Revenant Blade feat.

How much would this change things power wise? Any recommendations or changes you would suggest?

Edit - Still point buy so have 8/18/14/16/10/8

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

Treantmonk, I think you need to redo that calculation. Level 2 Spiritual Weapon / Level 3 Spirit Guardians is 35 DPR per round

OK (4.5x3)+(4.5+4)+(6.5x2)=34.5
Yes, good call, I don't know what happened there.

and honestly it's going to be less since it A) relies on two Wisdom saves

Yes, it will be less, as will assuming 100% hits on abilities that require "to hit" rolls. This is with a character posting a non-impressive +7 to hit at level 9 (assuming 16 or 17 dex), with no chance of any additional plusses from magic weapons. There are of course a lot of variables, and we can't really effectively compare Wisdom Saves vs AC of opponents, but I figured 1/2 a dozen of one...

and B) requires two rounds to set up.

That's an excellent point, and makes the comparison not very good, as we kind of end up comparing apples and oranges I suppose.

the frontliners struggle to put up that much damage by round two even with help from GMW/Sharpshooter.

Does it? I chose Cleric to compare the damage of another melee spellcaster, but in my experience, neither compare to the damage of a real melee character, particularly post level 5.

But a level 5 Shadow Blade in a level 11 Bladesinger's hand does 8d8 + 1d6 (offhand, keep a mess of shortswords on your person and drop them when you want to cast) + 8 damage, 49.5 DPR on a full attack. At level 14, that shoots up to 61.5 DPR, assuming 16 or 18 DEX and 20 or 18 INT.

I'm wondering about your math now. (8x4.5)+(3.5)+(8) is 47.5 I think.

At level 14 it shoots up to 61.5.

So let's see what baseline damage looks like for a melee character.

I thought about this for a bit, and although Paladin does the most damage, it's not sustainable damage, so I don't think that's a fair baseline.

Fighters do so much other stuff besides damage, unless they are a crit build, which doesn't really calculate if we are assuming regular hits.

Barbarian is probably a good choice for comparison. Berserker is a bad choice because I don't know how to account for the incredible downside to their rage. I like the Zealot. It's straight forward and mechanically good. Let's see what kind of damage it brings at various levels.

Let's be accurate. If I include GWM it means a reduced chance to hit. We can't just assume "always hits", these numbers don't really mean anything.

Now AC varies of course. I've seen 13+proficiency bonus thrown around a lot, so let's try that. That means at level 11 we are looking at AC 17, and for level 14 AC 18.
(P.S. Somebody actually did the work on this. Looks like these numbers are pretty close.)

Bladesinger level 11: we said Dex 18 so that's +8 to hit. Crits on 20. Hits on 9-20 (60%)
So pretty easy calculation. 0.6x47.5=28.5. 0.05x39.5=1.975 (crits) = about 31 damage.

At level 14, now lets say 20 Int for +5 damage to each as you suggested. Crits on 20. Hits on 9-20 (60%)
Again, pretty easy calculation. 0.6x61.5=36.9 0.05x39.5=1.975 = about 38 damage. Unfortunately the chance to hit does not increase since he is using a shadow blade instead of a + weapon.

Barbarian should have rare magic items (+2 weapon) levels 5-10 and very rare (+3) level 11+ (see magic item by rarity in DMG).

I'm assuming Rage, as 4 uses at level 11, 5 at level 12.

The barbarian will reckless attack and use GWM. We won't factor in any other possible tricks.

To hit at level 11 will be 5 (str) + 4 (prof) + 2 (magic weapon) - 5 (GWM) = +6. Hits on 11 (50%). That's easy math, goes to 75% with reckless attack. Chance of crit is a bit more tricky, it is actually 9.75% (0.0975)

So, I dunno, we'll give him an axe. 6.5 average damage + 5 (str) + 3 (rage) + 10 (gwm) +2 (magic weapon) + =26.5. 2 attacks total 53. Zealot damage only adds once (8.5) so 61.5
0.75x61.5=46.125 crit (0.0975x6.5)=0.63375 = lets say 47 damage (technically crit damage might be higher because of zealot, but it makes it more complicated for very small difference.

Now lets go to level 14. Should I go polearm master with a glaive +3? No, let's just say the feat is not relevant. Give him his Axe +3 this time.
To hit at level 14 will be 5 (str) + 5 (prof) + 3 (magic weapon) - 5 (GWM) = +8. Hits on a 10 (55%). That's harder math, but with reckless attack it's 79.75%. Brutal critical means crits add an additional 13 damage.
Damage becomes 55 with hits plus 10.5 zealot damage for 65.5.
0.7975x65.5=52.23625 crit (0.0975x19.5)=1.90125 or 54 per round.

So, math done (check my numbers of course!) looks like attacking an AC 17 at level 11 and AC 18 at level 12

Level 11 Bladesinger with 5th level shadow blade and off-hand shortsword average damage = 31 per round
Level 11 Barbarian with GWM rage and reckless attack = 47 per round

Level 14 Bladesinger, same stuff = 38 per round
Level 11 Barbarian, same stuff = 54 per round

There's a significant disparity there. I would say that if I'm the 3rd party with that Haste spell mentioned, I would not be putting it on the Bladesinger. Seems like I would only get 70% of the bang for my buck.

I should also mention that the Barbarian is not concentrating, so there is no chance his weapon will vanish if he's hit in combat.

I should probably finish up with this: If I want max damage at 11th level, I'm not choosing a Barbarian. Fighters and Paladins both outdamage them at this level, so these numbers aren't even particularly high, but they do serve as a baseline for what we would expect a melee character to do.

I'm guessing here, but I'm fairly confident that a Bladesinger would also do more damage. IF that bladesinger was to concentrate on animate objects instead of shadow blade and just use a rapier instead (and nothing in other hand). The more I think about it in fact, the more certain I am.