D&D 5E [GUIDE] My Word Is My Sword: The Paladin Guide

smbakeresq

Explorer
I think you are a little to focused on optimizing damage. Personally some of the best feats for Paladins IMO are Heavy Armor Master and Inspiring Leader IMO.

Typically you will not be the only melee ally against a boss type enemy. As such your other melee non-reach allies will foil your plan to try and sentinel OA him every turn. Also even if you are the only melee, if the boss isn't in your reach he can go completely around you avoiding the OA and go toward your squishier party members. It takes more movement but is very doable especially if you are being that inconvenient to him.

They all are focused too much on optimizing damage. There isn’t enough difference to matter at the table, just play what you want. I typically pick a style to match the mini I am using for that PC.

Inspiring leader is one the best feats in the game, maybe the best feat.

Heavy Armor Master plays a lot better than it sounds. For a VHuman I take it almost every time at first level to get most mileage. Think about how many times you get attacked wherein the feat comes into play, you might get attacked 3-400 times before 5th level as you will be the frontline. It would be worth it if you only got attacked 100 times.

Warcaster is good even without BB if you use Command and have another PC that does same or uses Dissonant Whispers or other fear affects to make them move. You just want as many chances as possible to roll a crit especially if you can tack on a doubled smite.

The reason I use Shield Master a lot on a Paladins is that increased chance to land that doubled smite. It’s more effective in our game since critical hits for us is max weapon damage + the extra crit dice so as not to get a crit and then crap out.
 

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smbakeresq

Explorer
*shrugs* I think it's better than Heavy Armor Master except for the very earliest levels. Especially if it gets your CON to the next modifier.

Inspiring Leader is great, but when you pick Vengeance, you're picking it to do damage, and Resilient (CON) helps you deal a lot more of it in boss fights. Inspiring Leader is a feat I'd gladly take on a less purely offensive Oath, such as Devotion or Ancients. On Vengeance, Resilient (CON) is a higher priority.

This is also true. I only got to play one Vengeance Paladin, I always pick my PC last to fill out the group needs and Paladin is almost always as good choice. Every group almost always has enough damage dealers (especially with Hexblade out) usually the groups need more front line and support and then more control through wizards.
 

smbakeresq

Explorer
For the spear users this is interesting BTW. It doesn’t apply in D&D but it’s still pretty neat on why Spears were used so often.

https://youtu.be/uLLv8E2pWdk


As far as pre-buffing, if you are not pre-buffing at least half the time then look around the table and figure out who to slap among your rogue, monk, wizard (arcane eye is incredible) knowledge clerics, trickery clerics, bards, and all the other PCs whose job it is to get information and intel for the group.

Their job is to tell you what’s ahead so you can do your job, prepare for and lay waste to all those you can reach.
 

Benny89

First Post
This is also true. I only got to play one Vengeance Paladin, I always pick my PC last to fill out the group needs and Paladin is almost always as good choice. Every group almost always has enough damage dealers (especially with Hexblade out) usually the groups need more front line and support and then more control through wizards.

That is why I gravitate more towards Hexadin with Spear + Shield now, because I am the only melee fighter in party and the only full-time front liner in party. That is why I think Balancing support, defense and offense is better option.

Maximum damage is what I love, but at the same time I need to live long enough to do that damage and it would be nice to not lose party members in meantime.
 

smbakeresq

Explorer
That is why I gravitate more towards Hexadin with Spear + Shield now, because I am the only melee fighter in party and the only full-time front liner in party. That is why I think Balancing support, defense and offense is better option.

Maximum damage is what I love, but at the same time I need to live long enough to do that damage and it would be nice to not lose party members in meantime.

If you are only one in front your better off just being a full Paladin. I like Crown in those cases because you get Spirit Guardians, you slow them down so they cant get past you and you can also just run the area of affect over them or they can be pushed or pulled into it as damage is once per turn, not once per round.
 

Benny89

First Post
If you are only one in front your better off just being a full Paladin. I like Crown in those cases because you get Spirit Guardians, you slow them down so they cant get past you and you can also just run the area of affect over them or they can be pushed or pulled into it as damage is once per turn, not once per round.

First, I like Vengeance too much :) and second- it's too late, dices has been thrown :D

Nah, 1 level Hexblade is too good for front too. Shield spell with +5 AC and CHA bases attacks (means I can ASI CHA for better saves) is more towards front line as it allows me to get more defensive tools for almost free and at the same time boost my offensive arsenal.
 

Nephilm X

First Post
They all are focused too much on optimizing damage. There isn’t enough difference to matter at the table, just play what you want. I typically pick a style to match the mini I am using for that PC.

Inspiring leader is one the best feats in the game, maybe the best feat.

Heavy Armor Master plays a lot better than it sounds. For a VHuman I take it almost every time at first level to get most mileage. Think about how many times you get attacked wherein the feat comes into play, you might get attacked 3-400 times before 5th level as you will be the frontline. It would be worth it if you only got attacked 100 times.

Warcaster is good even without BB if you use Command and have another PC that does same or uses Dissonant Whispers or other fear affects to make them move. You just want as many chances as possible to roll a crit especially if you can tack on a doubled smite.

The reason I use Shield Master a lot on a Paladins is that increased chance to land that doubled smite. It’s more effective in our game since critical hits for us is max weapon damage + the extra crit dice so as not to get a crit and then crap out.

Inspiring Leader is OK but HP is an inefficient line of defense unless you've got resistance. If you've got say a Barbarian and the DM is giving you plentiful short rests it's not a bad pick to increase your dungeoncrawling mode sustain, but you'd rather see it on a Sorcerer or Bard than on the MAD as hell Paladin.

Heavy Armor Master only factors in when you actually take damage, and even then the true impact comes down to how many times you took damage during a fight, as it's generally trivial to patch yourself up between encounters. It kicks ass when 3 bps is like 25 to 10% of your HP applied per instance, but once you're past level 4 you should be really be thinking about how many times per fight it's actually applying. Absolutely worthwhile if you have an odd STR score you need evening out, but that's only going to happen with rolling, and from an optimization perspective PAM does far more for you at early levels.

You're a little confused about War Caster: the feat lets you cast spells as a reaction in situations where the enemy would already provoke an opportunity attack, so you pair it with Booming Blade so you can cast that in lieu of making a normal attack.

You can replace one of your Attack action attacks with a Shove attempt, so if what you're looking is crit-fishing then PAM is identical in function since you get a shove plus two attacks on top. Shield Master is nice for different reasons (namely, reaction evasion to avoid chip damage), not as an offensive tool.

5e has a narrow window for optimization - there aren't really that many picks that make a difference - but the ceiling is high. For example, take two level 5 Paladins: one is a VHuman who started with 16 STR, took Polearm Master and Resilient(CON). The other is a Tiefling who took HAM at 4 to round up his CON to 16, and wants to be the tank so grabbed Protection Fighting Style.

Do you want to know how much more damage the optimized human does? +108% on a typical fight. Literally two tieflings worth of DPR contribution, and if you put them together in a party and they played at equivalent skill levels, it'd be easy to tell who is the greatest asset to the team - because being a little individually tougher does not help the group overcome challenges as much as being twice as good at inflicting The Best CC.

I agree with the sentiment of playing what you want, and there are many ways to contribute to the cooperative challenge-solving game that is D&D besides damage numbers, but to say individual character-building choices within a class don't make much of a difference is being disingenuous.
 

Benny89

First Post
Inspiring Leader is OK but HP is an inefficient line of defense unless you've got resistance. If you've got say a Barbarian and the DM is giving you plentiful short rests it's not a bad pick to increase your dungeoncrawling mode sustain, but you'd rather see it on a Sorcerer or Bard than on the MAD as hell Paladin.

Heavy Armor Master only factors in when you actually take damage, and even then the true impact comes down to how many times you took damage during a fight, as it's generally trivial to patch yourself up between encounters. It kicks ass when 3 bps is like 25 to 10% of your HP applied per instance, but once you're past level 4 you should be really be thinking about how many times per fight it's actually applying. Absolutely worthwhile if you have an odd STR score you need evening out, but that's only going to happen with rolling, and from an optimization perspective PAM does far more for you at early levels.

You're a little confused about War Caster: the feat lets you cast spells as a reaction in situations where the enemy would already provoke an opportunity attack, so you pair it with Booming Blade so you can cast that in lieu of making a normal attack.

You can replace one of your Attack action attacks with a Shove attempt, so if what you're looking is crit-fishing then PAM is identical in function since you get a shove plus two attacks on top. Shield Master is nice for different reasons (namely, reaction evasion to avoid chip damage), not as an offensive tool.

5e has a narrow window for optimization - there aren't really that many picks that make a difference - but the ceiling is high. For example, take two level 5 Paladins: one is a VHuman who started with 16 STR, took Polearm Master and Resilient(CON). The other is a Tiefling who took HAM at 4 to round up his CON to 16, and wants to be the tank so grabbed Protection Fighting Style.

Do you want to know how much more damage the optimized human does? +108% on a typical fight. Literally two tieflings worth of DPR contribution, and if you put them together in a party and they played at equivalent skill levels, it'd be easy to tell who is the greatest asset to the team - because being a little individually tougher does not help the group overcome challenges as much as being twice as good at inflicting The Best CC.

I agree with the sentiment of playing what you want, and there are many ways to contribute to the cooperative challenge-solving game that is D&D besides damage numbers, but to say individual character-building choices within a class don't make much of a difference is being disingenuous.

To add to that, it's also worth to note that Shield Master shove can comes only AFTER you use all your attacks. As per description: "If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield." - you have to take first attack action and then use Shove. It was also confrimed by Sage Advice. You can check here: https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/994993596989300736

So it won't help you landing anything, only your allies. If you were using Shove so far as 1. Shove 2. Attack action then you were doing that against rules of this feat.

HAM is good early level talent but it's becomes insignificant in tier 3 and I don't like to take feats that lose their power over time. Feats like PAM, ASI, Sentinel, War Caster, RES etc. stay relevant all the time from 1st to 20th level.

There is of course a lot of stuff to care about when you want to be "optimized". Not only your private damage or protection, but also how usefull you will be for a party.

As we were discussing here: a PAM GWM 20 STR Paladin may do more damage, but will he be able to tank for party when needed? Does his +3 save throws contribute enough? As opposed: Hexadin with Spear + Shield with CHA 20 is providing team with +5 save throws, 5x Cleansing Touches, better face skills and being able to be a tank when needed for their team (Compound Duel with CHA 20 DC + potentially 27 AC). He is also better caster with CHA 20.

How will HAM Paladin contribute to team vs a PAM paladin or Sentinel Paladin?

While we focused a lot here on damage- there is a reason for that. A good optimized Paladin can have great damage, defense and support for party. And will be ten times more usefull than HAM & SM Paladin.

I also agree with @Nephlim X that you can always play what you want, but sadly in 5e- one feat can really make a huge difference.

We didn’t look at raw nova. The calculations get a lot more complicated there. I’ll do some samples later when I’m at home.

An example: The character with higher hit chances will hit on more attacks in a given time frame. If all you want is nova damage that means he is smiting more often.

I am not rushing but I am curious about those! Did you have a chance to do some samples?

And thanks for catching that and testing! :)
 
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smbakeresq

Explorer
I am not confused about warcaster. You can take OppAtt on your own turn, so if you have some effect that makes them move on your turn you can take an OppAtt also, using a spell if you have warcaster. An example is a Bard, cast Dissonant Whispers, force their move using their reaction, then cast BB as your OppAtt and get the bonus damage right away.

HP is inefficient, but using actions for healing is even more inefficient, inspiring word saves those actions and is healing effect is incredible over the course of the day. If you play with many rests it is devalued. We don’t, it’s 4-6 encounters between short rests, the game is too easy if it’s 2 encounters between short rests.

If your not using heavy armor master to save damage every encounter then your game is too easy. Even past level 4 you will be seeing creatures who can hit you with multi-attack all over and you should be right in their faces using your armor and HP to protect softer PCs. It also loses value if you are allowed to rest all the time.

Your example is terrible, I have never seen anyone ever take protection style, it’s unrealistic. If you take HAM then you would take GWM or PAM, using HAM to mitigate not having a shield, that’s the common use. If you take dueling then you would take Shield then you would take SM, which is how you get a bonus action to use. It’s the way to crit fish if you don’t use two handed weapons. If you have PAM you don’t crit fish with a shove, you crit fish by attacking more.

SM with correct timing gets your teammates to crit fish, they will go after the prone creature if possible. Depends on group but monks work best for this as they can move and attack multiple times and then move away.

DPR isn’t the be all to end all, even using an unrealistic example. The greatest asset to the team isn’t the damage dealer, it’s the controller like a a God Wizard or in some cases a Bard. Your job as a Paladin is to keep the bad guys away from the caster using Suggestion, Hypnotism, Polymorph, various wall spells, Force Cage, etc., while making a solid damage contribution.
 

Benny89

First Post
If your not using heavy armor master to save damage every encounter then your game is too easy. Even past level 4 you will be seeing creatures who can hit you with multi-attack all over and you should be right in their faces using your armor and HP to protect softer PCs. It also loses value if you are allowed to rest all the time.

This is wrong. I knew many DMs who like to throw higher CRs than they should at party and HAM while strong early is not as strong as PAM or RES (CON)/Warcaster. There is a reason if you look on every optimized thread ever on Paladins- that no one ever recommend HAM.

Again- it's not bad feat. It's not bad decision to take it. People should play what they feel is most fun.

However when it comes to optimization- it's just simply not a best choice.

Let's take your level 4 example. Let's take Variant Human.

You take on level 1 HAM and level 4 PAM. The other Paladin takes level 1 PAM and level 4 RES (CON).

So first Paladin have easier time staying alive for first 3 levels but he has only one attack. The second Paladin will take more damage while being hit but he will kill more enemies faster than first Paladin. Dead enemies don't do damage too.

Let's take example of 3 Goblins attacking our first level Paladins. Both have 18 AC (16 +2 shield). One has longsword 1k8 + 3 and second one have Spear 1k6 + 3.

First Paladin on average will do 7,5 damage on their turn. Goblin have 8 HP. Most likely he will not kill that Goblin, which gives Goblin chance to hit him again in next turn. Our PAM Paladin have average damage per turn of 12 dmg per turn. He will most likely kill Goblin in first turn. Second turn firs Paladin is being attacked by 3 Goblins, second Paladin by two Goblins. So one reduce damage taken by damage reduction, second one by faster enemy elimination.

Now level 4. So first Paladin has dmg reduction + PAM and second one have PAM + RES (CON). Now ok- first Paladin is still more tanky when he takes damage and he has same killing power now. However- what about Concentration? HAM does not help with maintaing your Shield of Faith, Bless or Divine Favour. So you will take less damage but second Paladin will be able to safely maintain their concentration buffs.

Now on higher levels, tier 3. Enemy is hitting Paladin for 36 dmg. That is Concentration check DC 18. First Paladin takes 33 dmg instead, ok. But what is important more at this level? 3 dmg deduction or passing that CONC checks to maintain your Healing Ward, Haste, Holy Weapon etc. ?

What I say is: at some point HAM loses it's usefulness but RES (CON) stays relevant all the time, and it's getting even more important as you level up.
 

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