D&D 5E [GUIDE] NADRIGOL's Melee Bladesinger Guide

NADRIGOL

Explorer
Hi Broken One. So first, I haven't played in a while and may be rusty. I'm just going to give my instinct answers on the specifics of your situation, and let my guide fill in the gaps.

I think the guantlets are the really interesting discussion. And I think you've nailed the key point. You need to be careful not to hamstring your character in the event those guantlets are somehow taken away. The big area of consideration with a high strength are multiclassing, weapon choice, feat selection, and party role.

I mention party role, as early game, the guantlets can let you act as a main damage dealer. You can straight up compete with a fighter or rogue based purely on stats. Worth figuring out who else is in your party, and where you want your emphasis to be. Late game, stats will catch up to your 19, and eventually surpass it, but you remain viable.

RAW, your guantlets mean you meet multiclassing strength prerequisites (although RAI, it's been clarified that your un-itemed base stat should meet prerequisites). This means a multiclass like Paladin is less MAD. Although since you can't wear heavy armor like some strength buds, this isn't a pure win for you, since you'll still want to increase dex to keep up AC (although you could potentially focus INT for AC, if your party is good at managing encounters).

Your weapon choice is probably the most possibly impacted by loss of the item. Without multiclass, you only have proficiency with the small list of wizard weapons and a single weapon of your choice. If you choose a non-finesse weapon, and lose your guantlets, you're out of luck! A more interesting consideration might be the staff you already have proficiency with. It's now viable as a strength item, and will suit you well if you come across a magic staff that you don't want to have to switch in and out with your primary weapon. If no one else is asking for the guantlets or your spider staff, you may have an interesting build opportunity.

On that last note, you can now consider some new feats essentially restricted to strength builds. Polearm Master is a very interesting way to gain a BA attack without TWF. That BA attack achieves the same goal of an additional attack to stack your bonuses on while only doing an average of 2 damage less than an offhand rapier. It interacts with Haste and the SCAG can trips in the same way, and the AOO effect is a great defensive buff, especially if combined with War Caster and Booming Blade. This is a similar situation to the weapon choice problem though... You lose the guantlets, and this feat becomes almost useless since you struggle to land attacks with a staff.

I now really like the idea of a Polearm Master strength build if you can take both of those items. Might lack the flavor of the book prompts you liked, but I'd be surprised if you struggled to find flavor for a singing dancing wizard walking on ceilings smacking people with a poison staff.

Good starting point for all this might be talking to your DM and figuring out how likely he is to take away your guantlets. A lot of DM's will tell you to go ahead with your cool build, and they won't steal your stuff. But if they shrug their shoulders and wink at you, I'd think hard about your choices.
 

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Broken One

Explorer
Hi Broken One. So first, I haven't played in a while and may be rusty. I'm just going to give my instinct answers on the specifics of your situation, and let my guide fill in the gaps.


Thanks none the less, what you answered was really helpful and I had some more ideas of my own.

I think the guantlets are the really interesting discussion. And I think you've nailed the key point. You need to be careful not to hamstring your character in the event those guantlets are somehow taken away. The big area of consideration with a high strength are multiclassing, weapon choice, feat selection, and party role.

I really like multiclassing but with us just reaching level 5 and the fact that our GM told us that level 6 will take quiet some time (we level by milestones) I'm a bit reluctant to give up 3rd level spells. I would have to go for some really great class features to make it worth waiting another level. So I was not sure about what multiclass might make it worth.

War pick what would be more just less optimized and more flavorfull choice does nothing for me but to be honest most of the one handed martial weapons I could get via bladesinger don't do that much. I could go with rapier just to make sure I have a finesse backup weapon if I ever loose those gauntlets. To be honest I don't think my GM would make me loose them and I could talk about it like you suggested. I already told him that I would tryting to make us of them to not contest the rogue of the party with weapons we may find. I think he even appreciates it because the other players are quiet new to D&D.

My other party members are:
5th level fighter (battlemaster) human, GWM
5th level rogue (assasin) tiefling
5th level druid (dream or shepard)

Your weapon choice is probably the most possibly impacted by loss of the item. Without multiclass, you only have proficiency with the small list of wizard weapons and a single weapon of your choice. If you choose a non-finesse weapon, and lose your guantlets, you're out of luck! A more interesting consideration might be the staff you already have proficiency with. It's now viable as a strength item, and will suit you well if you come across a magic staff that you don't want to have to switch in and out with your primary weapon. If no one else is asking for the guantlets or your spider staff, you may have an interesting build opportunity.

On that last note, you can now consider some new feats essentially restricted to strength builds. Polearm Master is a very interesting way to gain a BA attack without TWF. That BA attack achieves the same goal of an additional attack to stack your bonuses on while only doing an average of 2 damage less than an offhand rapier. It interacts with Haste and the SCAG can trips in the same way, and the AOO effect is a great defensive buff, especially if combined with War Caster and Booming Blade. This is a similar situation to the weapon choice problem though... You lose the guantlets, and this feat becomes almost useless since you struggle to land attacks with a staff.

I had the same idea about using mit quarterstaff profiency and getting a finesse weapon via bladesinger just to be save. It's not that flavorfull but I liked the idea about taking War Caster and Polearm Master. I like it mostly for getting something to do with my bonus action but I question myself if it won't be a bit dangerous to use my reaction for the AoO instead for things like Shield or Absorb Elements? I thought I should perhaps pick up something like Mobile which would help me with all weapons and let me employ some hit and run tactics. This could even help to get some booming blade procs of. What do you think about Mobile? I mean I could even combine it with Polearm Master and/or War Caster.

I now really like the idea of a Polearm Master strength build if you can take both of those items. Might lack the flavor of the book prompts you liked, but I'd be surprised if you struggled to find flavor for a singing dancing wizard walking on ceilings smacking people with a poison staff.

Yeah it doesn't sound that bad and could be quiet fun. I even see a bigger chance in aquirring a better staff instead of something like a war pick. One quick question should Shadar-Kai as an elven subrace still be getting those elven weapons proficiencys like shotsword, longsword, shorbow and longbow? If so shortswords would be a finesse backup that I could use.

Edit: What about using a Whip in place of the Spiked Chain the Shadar-Kai are known for? Its a finesse weapon, it has reach and a good fall back. I still could make use of the Spider Staff but the question is if for feats I would be better of with something else than Polearm Master like Mobile, War Caster, Sentinel or so?

Greets & thanks for your reply so far,

Broken One
 
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NADRIGOL

Explorer
Hi Broken One,

Reading over your thoughts gave me another thought, which is that the guantlets are a good opportunity to go a feat heavy build. You obviously still need Int for your spells/AC and Dex for your AC/init, but if you want to focus damage, you can let those slide a little in favor of feats.

Re PM RA, as with any reaction, you have to consider your economy. The polearm master trick is perfect in solo enemy combat, or when you're up soon in the order and haven't had to use shield or absorb elements yet. Obviously if you're in Melee, against a big group, and your turn just ended, you don't want to immediately waste your reaction on an aoo. It's just about planning.

Mobile is a great feat for a Melee Bladesinger, regardless of build. Gives you a lot of options in combat. Doesn't have any particular synergy with PM or WC (actually... The PM BA attack can be on any target, so could let you disengage two targets for free with mobile).

From what I can see, the Shadar-Kai do not recieve any of the base Elf template attributes. Their template is wholly self contained.

The whip and spiked chain are very cool options, but kind of beg an additional feat, spell sniper, in order to take advantage of their reach with the SCAG cantrips.

Sentinel is a little more suited to a tank role than a striker. All of its features tend to increase aggression against you, and you have a fighter in the party better suited to that.
 

nothinglord

First Post
Seeing as I didn't see it discussed in the guide and searching the thread turned up no results, have you done the math on 1handed builds using the Shadow Blade spell? Especially in comparison to the Haste TWF build.
 

NADRIGOL

Explorer
Seeing as I didn't see it discussed in the guide and searching the thread turned up no results, have you done the math on 1handed builds using the Shadow Blade spell? Especially in comparison to the Haste TWF build.

I haven't been playing since Xanathar's came out, which I believe is where Shadow Blade was published? So none of that content is in the guide in any form.

It definitely seems at first glance like it will synergize well, although the concentration cost may end up being too high. It will take some work to update my spreadsheet to accommodate it, but I'll make a go at it at some point.
 

Really? It depends on whether or not you have access to magical items. If you have magical items, Haste can pull slightly ahead at endgame. If you don't, Shadow Blade is better for raw DPR. That said, Haste has a couple of benefits that Shadow Blade doesn't (most notably the speed increase) so it's worthwhile to use both even if your workday is short.

No Magic Items, level 14, INT and DEX 18:
Haste + TWF + Extra Attack, Shortsword: 4d6 + 28 = 42
Haste + Scag Cantrip + TWF, Shortsword: 3d6 + 2d8 + 20 = 39.5
5th-level Shadow Blade + TWF: 8d8 + 1d6 + 20 = 59.5

Level 18, Access to Flametongue Shortswords and one each of Tome of Clear Thought/Manual of Dexterity, so DEX and INT are 22:
Haste + TWF, Flametongue: 10d6 + 42 = 77
Haste + Scag Cantrip + TWF, Flametongue: 7d6 + 2d8 + 30 = 63.5
5th-level Shadow Blade + TWFing: 8d8 + 1d6 + 30 = 69.5
 
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nothinglord

First Post
It definitely seems at first glance like it will synergize well, although the concentration cost may end up being too high.

I mean, Haste is also concentration, but I guess it has defensive benefits that will help keep it up.

The main difference between the two I'd think is that Haste does not need to be upcast, whereas Shadow Blade does need to upcast to scale. However Shadow Blade probably scales better than the Haste + TWF combo.
 

Darin Brown

First Post
There is a lot of great info in here, so thank you for the guide!

I've played a few BS's, and I really like playing a pure melee BS build with War Caster, and ASI's to Dex and Int. War Caster mainly for the advantage to Concentration saves but also to Booming Blade a fleeing foe adn to possibly equip a Wand of the War Mage in off hand. There are strong benefits to ASI's in Dex (AC and to hit, which is big in melee) and Int (AC, spell to hit, prepared spell, concentration saves, damage at higher levels), so I build them with Int one mod level above Dex until I can max them both.

At high level, against something really big, I can cast Crown of Stars for a bonus action attack, eliminating the benefit of TWF. Upcasting Shadow Blade to 5 (or even to 7 against epic foes, as I just did against a Kraken last weekend) cranks up the damage. Additionally, it's psychic damage, which is almost never hampered by immunity / resistance. High level upcasting is viable with the extra top slot I get from a pure caster build. Add to that advantage in dim light / darkness (which is fantastic in an entire group of characters with darkvision), and the damage increases significantly.

Granted, that leaves me with only a non-con spell for defense. Blink is great half the time, and Shield / Absorb Elements / Song of Defense can mitigate or eliminate enough damage the rest of the time to make concentration a almost a non-issue with Bladesong and War Caster. Add in Misty Step to get out of persistent AoE's or mobility-hampering zones, and I have all the mobility I need.

So...I enjoy the versatility of this character because it's viable as a melee class with occasional cool utility or damage spells or as a pure caster from behind as the situation warrants. There are probably ways to eek a little more damage out of a build, but I really enjoy playing it this way.
 

NADRIGOL

Explorer
Hi all,

Just a quick update. Several people have been maintaining the public copy of this guide. Thank you for your work, and for keeping things civil and clean in that document. Just a heads up that every once in a while, google inexplicably reverts the permissions on that document to read only for the public. Perhaps in response to abuse in the document, or maybe just a time limit on public edit access, it's unclear. If this happens, please send me an access request and I will change the public access back to edit mode.

Cheers!

NADRIGOL
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Hi all,

Just a quick update. Several people have been maintaining the public copy of this guide. Thank you for your work, and for keeping things civil and clean in that document. Just a heads up that every once in a while, google inexplicably reverts the permissions on that document to read only for the public. Perhaps in response to abuse in the document, or maybe just a time limit on public edit access, it's unclear. If this happens, please send me an access request and I will change the public access back to edit mode.

Cheers!

NADRIGOL

Just to let you knwo, the public copy shows a dialog that

"File is in the owner's trash
You will soon loose permanent access to this file. For continued access please make a copy"

(And, of course, it's not editable.)
 

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