D&D 5E Guidelines for fewer/tougher encounters?

Quick easy solution class lvls. 5 goblins ohh this is easy. 2 lvl 5 golbin barbs, a lvl 5 goblin wizard, and 2 lvl 5 goblin clerics. Suddenly not the kind of encounter to take lightly.

You don't need to stick with the normal Goblin either, use the template from the MM to make new and improved Goblins:

Goblins, normal
Bandit Captain (Goblin chieftain)
Gladiator (lieutenant)
Guards (Guards for the chieftain)
Thugs (Guards for the lieutenant)
Acolyte
Assassin (special forces)
Bandit (special forces)

change the weapons and reduce the HP a little or increase allot (your choice)
modifier to fit the Goblin Race
 

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Example first encounter in the entire game players rolled hier initiative and cast 2 sleep spells then one shoted the 5 goblins. Second encounter went the same way except this time I think the mobs got 4 total attacks. Short rest warlock gets 2 more sleeps shuts down half of each of the next 2 encounters. Short rest repeat for the next 2 encounters.

How was the Warlock casting two sleeps at 1st level? They only get 1/ short rest at 1st level. This makes the party at least 2nd level. Assuming 5 x 2nd level PCs, you have an xp budget of:

Easy: 250 XP
Medium: 500 XP
Hard: 750 XP
Deadly: 1000 XP

Meaning the following are expected [medium-hard] encounters for that party:

1 Bearded devil (700xp)
1 Orog and 2 mastiff pets (1000xp) just touches deadly.
2 sets of Animated armor (600xp)
4 Thugs (800xp)
1 Hobgoblin and 5 Goblins (900xp)
1 Bugbear and 2 hobgoblins (800xp)
1 Half ogre and 5 grimlocks (900xp)
4 twig blights, 2 needle blights, 1 vine blight (750xp)
2 Dire wolves (600xp)
1 Displacer beast (700xp)

Run them through the adventure again, with any six of those [appropriate] encounters thrown at them. He'd be lucky to shut down any more than a handfull of mooks, and even then only if they're all bunched up together. Most of those encounters feature critters with 30 odd HP and he'd be very lucky to knock even one of them down with 5d8, particularly once a few mooks get put to sleep.

Also, as soon as the critters are in melee range, he's screwed. Even with a party of elves, they still drain and weaken the spell (even if they arent actually affected).

Im not sure youre designing encounters or xp budgeting correctly for a second level party.
 
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Throw the CR guidelines to the wind, but provide the PCs with an escape route if all goes south?

My players were level 5 I think. They amazed me by fighting a bunch of goblins just to reach a Remorhaz, which they then proceeded to skewer (though it got in a few good licks).

A fully grown Remorhaz, mind you. Not the baby one the adventure suggests.

Not a chance in hell!

It has 195 hit points and an AC of 17. Its immune to cold and fire, and has tremorsense 60' (so it knows theyre coming). Anything that even touches it with a melee attack receives 3d6 fire damage in return. Its bite comes out at 40 damage at +11, and grapples (DC 17 to escape). If you dont escape, it bites again the next round at +11 dealing another 40 damage and swallowing you whole. Double that damage on a natural 20 (for an insta kill for most PCs). Its huge and has 10' reach.

Your average 5th level fighter even with a Con of 14 has 44 hit points. Assuming GWF and Fullplate they have an AC of 18 (getting hit on a 7) and an attack bonus (assuming strength of 18) of +7 (neading a 10 to hit; 15 with GWM switched on). Your Rogue with the same Con has 38 hit points.

The creature is one shotting a PC in full plate on a 7+.

How are they even hurting it? Fireball, sleep and scorching ray are out. If a caster annoys it, it uses the disengage action, burrows down (where they cant get it) and using its tremorsense, appears and rips the wizards face off. Every time someone hits in melee, it deals 3d6 damage in return back.

Solo, a creature probably needs to be either triple CR the party level or party level plus 10. (I say either or since my experience is still limited to the single-digit party levels, and while 5x3=15 I'm not sure the "rule" holds for 10x3=30... ;-)

I dont want to sound argumentative, but thats terrible advice and should be ignored.

Give me your PCs level and composition. I assure you I can design encounters that would challenge them at the appropriate CR and xp guidelines.
 
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How was the Warlock casting two sleeps at 1st level? They only get 1/ short rest at 1st level. This makes the party at least 2nd level. Assuming 5 x 2nd level PCs, you have an xp budget of:

Easy: 250 XP
Medium: 500 XP
Hard: 750 XP
Deadly: 1000 XP

Meaning the following are expected [medium-hard] encounters for that party:

1 Bearded devil (700xp)
1 Orog and 2 mastiff pets (1000xp)
2 sets of Animated armor (600xp)
4 Thugs (800xp)
1 Hobgoblin and 5 Goblins (900xp)
1 Bugbear and 2 hobgoblins (800xp)
1 Half ogre and 5 grimlocks (900xp)
4 twig blights, 2 needle blights, 1 vine blight (750xp)
2 Dire wolves (600xp)
1 Displacer beast (700xp)



Run them through the adventure again, with any six of those [appropriate] encounters thrown at them. He'd be lucky to shut down any more than a handfull of mooks, and even then only if they're all bunched up together. Most of those encounters feature critters with 30 odd HP and he'd be very lucky to knock even one of them down with 5d8, particularly once a few mooks get put to sleep.

Also, as soon as the critters are in melee range, he's screwed. Even with a party of elves, they still drain and weaken the spell (even if they arent actually affected).

Im not sure youre designing encounters or xp budgeting correctly for a second level party.

Its been about a year since then I'm probably remembering the number of sleeps wrong considering how much that spell pissed me off for the first month. I play on roll20 unless the map had ridiculously large rooms most the time you can hit 3 goblins with a 20 foot aoe. Between him shutting down 2-3 and the dragonborn paladin tanking the biggest part of what's left. The encounters were super quick. The third session they were level two and things got a little easier but I had to use reinforcement waves to make the bard even feel the need to use healing spells. Now I've learned the amount they can take and every encounter is deadly on that chart but still works out perfect for them.
 

Its been about a year since then I'm probably remembering the number of sleeps wrong considering how much that spell pissed me off for the first month. I play on roll20 unless the map had ridiculously large rooms most the time you can hit 3 goblins with a 20 foot aoe. Between him shutting down 2-3 and the dragonborn paladin tanking the biggest part of what's left. The encounters were super quick. The third session they were level two and things got a little easier but I had to use reinforcement waves to make the bard even feel the need to use healing spells. Now I've learned the amount they can take and every encounter is deadly on that chart but still works out perfect for them.

At 1st level, its a great spell. Hes a warlock, armed with 2 sleeps per short rest, and youre throwing waves of low HP mooks at him in a confined environment?


  • Split your encounters up
  • Use sleep resistant foes (undead like zombies, skeletons, a ghoul or two and deadly shadows are a favorite - animated armor and swords are also at this CR)
  • Use high hit point foes. Thugs are CR 1/2 and they have 30 odd HP. Insert a 'goblin thug' (same stats as a regular thug).
  • Restrict his ability to short rest. Throw an encounter at the party as they rest. Time limit your adventures.

Try any combination of the above instead of dialing up the encounters. Otherwise youll throw in a deadly encounter of sleep resistant foes, get a few bad rolls and it'll be game over for the party.
 

At 1st level, its a great spell. Hes a warlock, armed with 2 sleeps per short rest, and youre throwing waves of low HP mooks at him in a confined environment?


  • Split your encounters up
  • Use sleep resistant foes (undead like zombies, skeletons, a ghoul or two and deadly shadows are a favorite - animated armor and swords are also at this CR)
  • Use high hit point foes. Thugs are CR 1/2 and they have 30 odd HP. Insert a 'goblin thug' (same stats as a regular thug).
  • Restrict his ability to short rest. Throw an encounter at the party as they rest. Time limit your adventures.

Try any combination of the above instead of dialing up the encounters. Otherwise youll throw in a deadly encounter of sleep resistant foes, get a few bad rolls and it'll be game over for the party.

While I appreciate your advice we've been playing for about 9 months with the difficulty turned up and that balanced everything perfectly. Now when I start a new game in a setting appropriate for those enemies I will probably consider trying some of those. And I do do things like that I was the one talking about using class levels on my monsters. Which is my preference to explain why some are clearly better then others of the same type. If it is intelligent it probably has class levels. Even if its just ont or two.
 

There is no such thing as a CR 2 fight mate. Individual mosnter CRs are simply around to tell you the amount of xp the creature is worth, and so you can gauge the lethality of the monster (you generally dont want to throw the PCs up against a monster more than 1 CR above their level. 2 CRs above extremely rarely, and almost never more than 2 CRs above the party level if you expect them to fight it and win).

Encounters in 5E are built and rated for difficulty according to the xp budget for the encounter.

For 3 x 1st level PCs:

Easy: 75 XP
Medium: 150 XP
Hard: 225 XP
Deadly: 300 XP

You want to be using the medium - hard threshold (so your encounters should be from 150 - 299xp for this party).

The following are appropriate threats [medium to hard] for this party:

5 cultists
1 Thug and 2 bandits
4 Kobolds and 1 winged kobold
1 Bugbear
2 Orcs
3 Goblins
1 Hippogriff
1 dire wolf
1 Half Ogre
1 Acolyte and 4 tribal warriors

CR 2 monsters are worth 450 xp (making them a 'deadly' encounter, in addition to being over the recommended CR for the party). They incude such common things as an Ogre (59 hp, melee attack +6 dealing 2d8+4 damage) and an Ankheg (39 hp, +5 bite, 3d6+3 damage and grapple DC 13 plus a 3d6 acid spray line effect).

One of those critters alone create a very good chance of a TPK for a party of three 1st level PCs.



If you routinely throw 5 NPCs of the same power at 3 PCs of equal power, you should be getting TPKs all the time. Youre also encouraging nova tactics, buffing full casters, barbarians and paladins and totally nerfing fighters, monks and warlocks.

I dont want to sound critical of your campaign, but if youre only doing 2 encounters per day, you should consider toning them down to the 'medium - hard' level and using the longer rest variant instead.

No. Thanks for the unwanted critique though. It worked fine last night. I nearly killed my party twice. I'm fine with "nearly killed". Anything less than what I did and they will walk though my campaign like it was a picnic in a field of flowers.
 

I've noticed a lot of games I've played in felt like picnics compared to what I'm used to from 3.5. Maybe its cause the difficulty system is designed to allow for new player mistakes. If I was dming an entirely new group naybe I could see using those encounters but an even halfway optimized party just walks through it.
 

While I appreciate your advice we've been playing for about 9 months with the difficulty turned up and that balanced everything perfectly. Now when I start a new game in a setting appropriate for those enemies I will probably consider trying some of those. And I do do things like that I was the one talking about using class levels on my monsters. Which is my preference to explain why some are clearly better then others of the same type. If it is intelligent it probably has class levels. Even if its just ont or two.

Cool man, its your game.

No. Thanks for the unwanted critique though. It worked fine last night. I nearly killed my party twice. I'm fine with "nearly killed". Anything less than what I did and they will walk though my campaign like it was a picnic in a field of flowers.

'Nearly killing the party twice' in one session is not the game working fine. How many sessions does it take before one of those close calls finally kills them? One encounter of bad rolls, and its kaput.

If every encounter has a 10 percent chance of a TPK, then your PCs are odds on not to reach 5th level. In fact, going by xp guidelines, they have a less than 1 percent chance to make it that far.

More encounters of lower difficulty creates an equal challenge, but also ameliorates the risk of a TPK and maintains the balance between the classes.

5 x 4th level PCs have a deadly threshold of 2500xp. Some deadly encounters are:

1 Young black dragon (2900)
2 Flameskulls (3300)
4 Orogs (3600)
1 Hobgoblin captain and 8 Hobgoblins (3750)
2 Banshees (3300)
2 Helmed horrors (3300)

All of which would likely TPK a party of 5 x 4th level PCs (even PCs who are fully rested). And thats on the lower side of deadly.

Throwing encounters like that at PCs just encourages them to all avoid fighters, warlocks and monks, play full spellcasters or Paladins, and [smite/ high level spell] nova the encounter, before falling back to rest. The 5 minute adventuring day is reinforced, and initiative is the decicive factor in a combat.

Maybe thats the preferred style of your group, where certain classes are invalidated, nova tactics are preferred, and combats are rocket tag. If so, then more fun to you and feel free to ignore the advice.

I strongly suggest forcing six encounters on them before letting them long rest. How about making long rests key off a [six encounter] milestone and short rests off a [two encounter] milesetone, and un-link the benefits of a 'rest' [hit dice, healing and resource recovery] from actual resting. See how the game balances at that point. Your encounters will be much more tactical, spellcasting, smiting, raging, action surging etc will become much more of a meaningful player choice, and the rocket tag element will vanish. Your encounters will balance so much better too.
 
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