Gungslinger Reloaded, 2nd round of playtest ONLINE

When rolling, most people tend to use the 4d6-L method, which has, inbuilt, a "discard terrible characters" rule (and, oftentimes, a "discard characters you don't like even if they aren't terrible" rule).

I haven't done the math for PF, but in 3.5E the average 4d6-L, discard terrible characters, result was several points higher than the standard point buy. I suspect the trend holds true in PF.

The average of 4d6 drop lowest is about 12.24 or something like that. However, that's keeping results that end up with an overall bonus of +0 or lower, which are normally discarded, even within the rules.

This skews the numbers, even without cheating or dropping legit but unwanted rolls, to a higher average than 15 pb (which can result in about 12.5 average if you keep things even across the board).
 

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The average of 4d6 drop lowest is about 12.24 or something like that.

Yeah, the average roll for a single ability score is 12.24, or 2.24 build points.

Unfortunately, since the value of an ability in build points scales nonlinearly, you can't just take that and multiply it by 6 to get the total value of an average character.

Easiest way to calc an average character value is to just write a quick program to generate a sufficiently large number of them, throw out the bad ones, and spit out the result. :)

I might do that for PF; someone else has already done it for 3.5.

EDIT: Although, reading my CRB, I don't see anything on getting rid of unsuitable characters. Is the rule still a net ability bonus of +1, or is it actually gone?
 
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Okay, assuming:

  1. Abilities below a 7 are worth -4 points; you don't get more points for worse abilities than that; and
  2. Characters are defined as "hopeless" and thrown out whenever:
    • Their largest ability bonus is worse than +2, or
    • The total of all their bonuses is less than +1

... then the Pathfinder Point Buy Value of an average 4d6-L character is 22.1.

I generated 100,000 characters, of which a little less than 15K were "hopeless." The hopeless rules are the 3.5 hopeless rules, since I can't find the PF equivalents.
 

Yeah, I usually offer 20 point buy alongside 4d6 drop lowest. Or rather, the group rolls 4d6 drop lowest each, and then anyone can pick any of the rolls done (including multiple people picking the same set of rolls), or choose point buy to get exactly what they want, but likely a little less average of points.

Anyways...

Regarding the Gunslinger.

I think they did a much better job this time around. I feel the class is actually "playable" as it is.

Now, I have a number of suggestions on how it can be made awesome, but I detailed those in my thread on the paizo forums.
Main issue: If Deeds become something you choose instead of automatic, you can address a lot of concerns being brought up.
 

My thoughts on the Gunslinger at this point are that it's sort playable, yet so many things are done exactly as I would not have done them. Unfortunately, the most glaring issue are the wonky firearms rules themselves, which we have been told are fixed and immobile for the purposes of the Inner Sea Region book, and hence for the default Gunslinger. A pistol costs 1000 gp. I want you to think about that for a second. A musket, at 2000 gp, costs nearly as much as a magic sword. Why? Are gunsmiths that rare? What exactly is a gun made of? Is there a reason why the Fabricare spell can't produce a big pile o' guns, provided the caster is a gunsmith? This also presents some odd worldbuilding problems, like military gunners carrying around hardware that costs as much as full plate and a warhorse. Mechanically, the guns start off on the right foot: decent damage, high critical multiplier, slow load times. But apparently the designers are married to this weird design concept that guns ignore armor at close range. Advanced firearms, such as the revolver, ignore it at rather long ranges. Does that make any sense to you? Apparently, you can dodge a bullet, but a breastplate won't stop a .38 at 120 feet. This is great for Rogues, who even taking a -4 to hit with a nonproficient weapon can likely open up tough opponents like tin cans, delivering the sneak attack ouch.

Enter the Gunslinger. Somewhere, this probably started off as a Musketeer, perhaps crossed with a sniper from Valley Forge. However, the Western gunslinger got thrown into the mix, with the result that nearly everything about this class further deforms firearms in order to make a musketeer shoot like a cowboy. Somehow, the concept was overlooked that if you wanted revolvers, you could just include rules for revolers. Consider that this is a full BAB class, in fact an alternative fighter. Is it not completely feasible for the Gunslinger to fire a pistol in one round, and attack with a rapier in the next? Rather than reducing the load times of firearms to seconds, through the nigh-mandatory Rapid Reload feat, would it not make more sense to build a Gunslinger around the Quick Draw feat, so apt whether drawing a blade against the Cardinal Richelieu or shooting at high noon?

The core mechanic of grit is a pain. Besides introducing a ki-like power to a class that probably doesn't want it, your supply of grit is very small, and replenishing it is tortuous. To replace grit, you must generally shoot someone, and roll well. Since firearms are somewhat slow to reload, this makes grit production slow. In order to do the exciting things you want to do, you have to do lots of boring things, like loading. Although 7th level deed, Dead Shot, allows you to pool your iterative attacks for one big shot, it seems that Vital Strike and its relatives is almost always going to be a better option, since with Rapid Reload and a move action reload, you can keep the grit factory running. I haven't checked the math yet, but I think at 7th level, the math is better on Vital Strike anyway, even taking into account the possibility of a big payoff on a critical hit. In short, I don't think grit is a good mechanic for the Gunslinger. Rather than lots of "if you have at least 1 grit" abilities, just make those things class abilities. Rather than lots of pseudo-feats, just shape the feat choices. Grit would be much better for a 10-level Prestige Class, the Man Without a Name. You could focus it on suitable, over-the-top gun action without having to worry about the Gunslinger's core strengths, or the types of firearms present in the campaign. Watch me be a game designer:

Gunfighter's moxy (Ex): You may ignore one misfire, or as a move action, clear any condition caused by a misfire. You may do this a number of times per day equal to your gunfighter level.

The first level ability, Gunsmith, is an ugly kludge that gives a 1st level character a firearm without granting them a lot of personal wealth. It also means Gunslingers, as a class, are also gun-makers, which is strange. Wouldn't it just be a whole lot simpler to give them a firearm budget, and price the arquebus at something reasonable for a 1st level character in a "rare guns" campaign? But setting that aside, if guns are that rare, why not just let the Gunslinger carry around his small fortune and not worry too much about it? Let it be "broken" for anyone other than the Gungslinger if you choose, but even a hardly-working firearm is worth more than 4d10 gp as scrap. Just making the firearm broken basically halves its price, which means the firearm is still very expensive, but not tempting just to sell. Anyway, it's not difficult for PCs, even at 1st level, to scheme their way into hundreds of gp, if they are sufficiently determined. They can sell summoned horses; mug merchants; sell themselves into slavery, then escape; etc. In a "guns are common" campaign the class ability gets scrapped anyway.

Of course, in a "guns are common" campaign, regular Fighters are quite the gunmen, themselves. After all, while they may deal with misfire issues, they can readily acquire a higher to-hit bonus than Gunslingers, thanks to Weapon Training (assuming Guns becomes a weapon group, which you would imagine is true, if guns are martial weapons). Barbarians have rage, Rangers have favored enemies and spells, Paladins can smite, and Fighters have weapon training. Gunslingers are the only full BAB class I am aware of that do not gain at least situational bonuses to hit. Of course, hitting touch ACs is simple enough.If you end up fighting a deific Avatar or something, all you really need to worry about is DR, since its deflection bonus doesn't count for much at that level, and it's supernatural toughness is not important at all. As I suggested before, the total result is fairly playable, but it lacks a certain logic. The Gunslinger's replacement ability for Weapon Training, Gun Training, is a per-weapon, non-scaling ability, making it substantially different in nature. Dex bonus to damage is a nice perk, since it allows the Gunslinger to boost the otherwise un-boostable firearm damage. But numerically, it's not that great except for Gunslingers with Rapid Reload. Also, shouldn't this ability be accessible to amateur gunslingers? Otherwise, the (you have to admit this is cool) musket-wielding Ranger is sort of out-of-luck in the damage department at higher levels. I can only hope there is an alternate, gun-wielding Ranger in Ultimate Combat, or there really is no justice.

So, in my universe, the Gunslinger is a quick-drawing, high intiative, versatile combatant who can squeeze some reliability out of a beast of a weapon. In this version, the Gungslinger is a half-baked howitzer with serious renewable-power issues, whose almost every class feature relates to owning and wielding expensive, non-magical items.

I hate to nitpick, but assuming this version goes to press, I would like to see some issues addressed. In the spirit of constructive criticism, some specific problems areas:

Gunsmithing: No checks required to create or repair firearms? Did someone not notice that in Pathfinder, item creation now requires a Spellcraft check?

Rapid Reload: The text needs to be cleaned up. Under its prerequisites, it specifies proficiency in a crossbow type, or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearm). If you are using the "commonplace firearms" campaign option, firearms are martial weapons. Note how even though the crossbow part is written as a feat, it simply specifies Weapon Proficiency (crossbow); firearms should be written similarly.

Startling Shot: So, without spending grit, you can make any creature flat-footed, any time you want? Yes, please. I don't understand why this wasn't written as a special Feint action, or some kind of fear effect you could save against. I'm trying to picture the bold paladin, slayer of red dragons, going, "OMG! Someone is shooting at me!"

Targeting: Ok, I understand that this is but one of my possible options, I'm just trying to imagine under what circumstances I would trade a full action for a single shot that imitates the benefits of Improved Critical. Especially in light of firearm reload times. Targeting the torso just seems underwhelming. This also does not mesh well with Vital Strike, seems it requires a full around action, meaning that you are giving up not only a move action, but also an avenue for performing extra damage, in order to gain a Targeting benefit. Either the torso shot needs to be beefed up, or it should just be admitted that a targeted torso shot is basically just a regular attack.

Advanced firearms: Revolvers, but no repeating rifles, the gun that won the West? Come on, guys. Wake up!
 

Honestly, if it's going to be a base class in it's own right, then it would more appropriate to make this about more than just Guns.

If you sat down and tried making a base class, it'd be approached differently than the Gunslinger, since that was originally approached as a variant of the Fighter.

I think it could work though. A full BAB class, lightly armored and with good resistance (d10 HD, high Fortitude, full BAB) and movement (light armor, Reflex saves, skillset for movement, abilities that give initiative and evasion stuff), that is based around this idea of "Luck".
Then toss in the guns factor, and you've got yourself a base class. If the class isn't solely about guns (ie, had luck based abilities with the Grit mechanic, and movement/initiative abilities), then you could have archetypes that allowed different weapons, or stuff like that (a crossbow slinger, etc).
 

The average of 4d6 drop lowest is about 12.24 or something like that. However, that's keeping results that end up with an overall bonus of +0 or lower, which are normally discarded, even within the rules.

This skews the numbers, even without cheating or dropping legit but unwanted rolls, to a higher average than 15 pb (which can result in about 12.5 average if you keep things even across the board).

Ok, then it is just me. Behold my luck, even when I not roll for me:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/5276263-post50.html
 

Honestly, if it's going to be a base class in it's own right, then it would more appropriate to make this about more than just Guns.

If you sat down and tried making a base class, it'd be approached differently than the Gunslinger, since that was originally approached as a variant of the Fighter.

I think it could work though. A full BAB class, lightly armored and with good resistance (d10 HD, high Fortitude, full BAB) and movement (light armor, Reflex saves, skillset for movement, abilities that give initiative and evasion stuff), that is based around this idea of "Luck".
Then toss in the guns factor, and you've got yourself a base class. If the class isn't solely about guns (ie, had luck based abilities with the Grit mechanic, and movement/initiative abilities), then you could have archetypes that allowed different weapons, or stuff like that (a crossbow slinger, etc).

... shuriken slinger, dead shot archer.... Hebrew Death-Slinger....
 
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