Gunpowder Works on Middle Earth

[Col_Pladoh]

This is a "sudden revaletion" to me.

While working on something regarding what those able to use magical powers could and would be doing, it hit me like the proverbial ton of bricks.

In the FELLOWSHIP OF THE RINGS, book and film, Gandalf has and employs pyrotechnical devices, fireworks that include skyrockets.

Of course the Chinese invented such things, and then went on to use the idea for such things as rockets, hand grenades, mines, cannons, and small gunpowder weapons. So now I am wondering why the armies of Middle Earth didn't employ at least explosive rockets and hand grenades in their warfare...

Gary

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

This is a "sudden revaletion" to me.

In the FELLOWSHIP OF THE RINGS, book and film, Gandalf has and employs pyrotechnical devices, fireworks that include skyrockets.

I'm not so certain that's really the case; Gandalf's fireworks seem to have a certain amount of magic to them - such as the roaring, swooping Smaug firework that scares the bejeezus out of the hobbits.

Simple commonplace magic seems to be fairly common in middle earth; many of the toys handed out at Bilbo's party are described as "obviously magical," and Gandalf seems to have a predisposition for magic relating to fire (on numerous levels).

It seems that if any one has the secret it would be the Wizards, and possibly Sauron, and they weren't sharing it with anyone.

 

[Vaxalon]

I agree. The fireworks are, to me, magical things. Yes, they probably have a certain amount of mundane stuff to them, but they are guided and enhanced by magic.

 

[hong]

I agree. The fireworks are, to me, magical things. Yes, they probably have a certain amount of mundane stuff to them, but they are guided and enhanced by magic.

Hong's First Law:
Any sufficiently commonplace magic is indistinguishable from technology.

 

[The Halfling]

If I remember correctly, I believe that the Orcs of the White Hand (Saruman's army) did use "Blasting Powder" during the battle of Helm's Deep to breech the walls of said fortification....

 

[Frostmarrow]

This is a "sudden revaletion" to me.

While working on something regarding what those able to use magical powers could and would be doing, it hit me like the proverbial ton of bricks.

In the FELLOWSHIP OF THE RINGS, book and film, Gandalf has and employs pyrotechnical devices, fireworks that include skyrockets.

Of course the Chinese invented such things, and then went on to use the idea for such things as rockets, hand grenades, mines, cannons, and small gunpowder weapons. So now I am wondering why the armies of Middle Earth didn't employ at least explosive rockets and hand grenades in their warfare...

Gary

It takes a while for new things to catch on. As you said your-self the Chinese _went on_ to create hand grenades and cannons. The time between the fire-cracker and the hand grenade (bomb) could be hundreds of years. People tend to not like change much.

For example the car or automobile was invented in the 1890s or something. It took until the 1920-30s before the car became widely used (50 years). In 1890 people were asked in a survey what nineteen century invention they believed would have the most impact in the next hundred years. Not one answered "the car".

I guess the reason gunpowder was not used in the war against Sauron was that it didn't occur to anyone. And if it did no one would listen to them. "Wars are fought with sword and shield. It was good enough for my grandfather so it's good enough for me."

 

[Tsyr]

I always got the feeling that "gunpowder" was as much as magical creation as a scientific one... hence, for example, why no one in the shire had seen fire works since the last time gandalf had shown them, despite the fact they were enjoyed by all. Likewise, if the orcs had blasting powder (Forgive me, I have not read the books in some time), it could have been given to them after having been created magicly.

 

[Col_Pladoh]

Heh!

In the film it seems the hobbits had no problem setting off the fireworks, eh?

The hobbits hadn't seen Gandalf in years, right? Yet they knew about firewirks done by him. Ergo, pyrotechnical devices existed for many years before Gandalf showing up again.

Okay, so "some magic" is used in creating the materials, and then ordinary folks set them off. Workable atrillery. After all, the gunners don't make the tubes or ammunition, only employ them on the battlefield.

The automobie anology isn't on target. Paris in 1914 was teeming with autos and trucks. Besides, we aren't talking about what is
"popular", that is for the populace, but what rulers would use in their arsenals.

The wizards of Middle Earth surely were sufficiently knowledgeable to make the connection between "amusing explosion and fire" to "armament."

Soon the Riders of Rohan can be dragoons, at least

Gary

 

[Carnifex]

In the film it seems the hobbits had no problem setting off the fireworks, eh?

In the film.

But what is in the film is not the same as the books, is it? And it's the books that are important in this matter. A film maker could suddenly say 'hey, lets give them all gunpowder weapons'...

And lo and behold, it might still be called Lord of the Rings but it wouldn't be anywhere near the same as the books, in which no suhc thing occurs.

 

[Mark]

Seems to me that all of those in Middle Earth that employed magic had their own areas of expertise. Maybe Gandalf was the only one with that knowledge of gunpower (which he also enhanced with special effects) and managed to keep it from others despite or because of its obvious applications for warfare. *shrug*