Gunpowder Works on Middle Earth

[Neqroteqh]

That is really strange in the real world. I mean the Chinese were very wise and shows a remarkable level of inventivness and acceptance of new things. They had a paper currency early for example. Which btw Marco Polo was mocked in Europe for even bringing here. It strikes me as very strange that the Chinese didn't make the connection. When we (the Europeans) got hold of gunpowder we used it for weaponry almost right away. Perhaps new applications of old materials requires a new or at least different mind set. The answer to the original question might very well be; Middle Earth lacks innovators....

No, the reason the Chinese never developed gunpowder into advanced weaponry was due to their social hierarchy, not the lack of discovering the potential uses- think about it for a second-

Gunpowder destroyed Feudalism, the social order of Europe. Knights and Castles were reduced from bastions of defense (arguably, Knights had already lost their status with the battle of Agincourt, but that's neither here nor there) to outmoded hardware. Feudalism, without this support, collapsed into monarchal nation-state absolutism and early parliamentary proto-democracy. States that remained feudal deteriorated (such as Russia and the Holy Roman Empire), and were thus unable to partake of the massive economic growth and new freedoms ushered in by the combined technological developments of guns, cannons, and the printing press.

China, on the other hand, was ruled by Confucian sages- a combination of politician, priest, and professor. If anyone in China had developed gunpowder weaponry, it would have been them- and, in their great wisdom and foresight, they knew that the introduction of guns and cannons could destroy the Confucian order as easily as it did Feudalism in Europe.

The difference between the two? Europe was a ferment of different nations and cultures each attempting to get the better of the other through political manipulations and superior firepower- thus they developed guns. China, on the other hand, was a large, powerful nation that looked upon all others as little more than barbarian provinces- they had no reason to develop guns, therefore they did not.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Sorry Gary, but I don't even see that we have "estabalished" that gunpowder works.

Well, Tolkien viewed his stories as set in a mythic "prehistory" of our Earth, so I think that any scientific process using earth elements would work; it's not a question of was gunpowder possible, it's a question of did anyone have it?

I'd say that it's quite likely that the Wizards had the knowledge (or at least Gandalf and Saruman - Radagast probably wouldn't care for the stuff). Sauron certainly would have known.

As Gary points out, there is some evidence of "blasting powder" being used.

As for the Hobbits setting off the fireworks, its a long step from setting a lit candle to a wick of a firework to creating the firework in the first place. Knowing how to fire a gun doesn't give you the skill to make one.

Tolkien's own prejudices against technology probably form the explanation for why such devices were never used by the forces of good as anything more than an amusement. Technology was for Saruman and Sauron to use in their attempts to subjugate, and gunpowder would qualify in that regard.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Give it up, Gygax

This debate has been going on since 1st Edition.

Real-world examples are irrelevant when applied to fantasy worlds or fantasy games. It's like debating whether Hitler was Chaotic Evil or Neutral Evil...the answer is that real people don't have alignments.

Just as in this case...it's the way it is because that's what Tolkien came up with.

 

[Frostmarrow]

Spoil sport

 

[Green Knight]

You know, it's possible that even though they had gunpowder, using it as a tool of war never occured to anyone.

My history's pretty hazy, but I remember something about a Central or South American civilization which never used the wheel. Yet that civilization produced toys for their children which had wheels! See what I'm saying? These people made toys for their kids which had wheels, but it NEVER OCCURED to them to make larger wheels for use in things other than toys.

Same thing, here. Gunpowder, when discovered, was immediately used for fireworks. And it just never occured to anyone that gunpowder had applications other than making a light show. Somebody on Middle Earth will eventually hit on the idea, of course. But in the meantime they're enjoying the light shows of the fireworks to much to even consider that the powder in those fireworks have other uses.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Y'know, there is something being overlooked here.

Gandalf used fire spells a number of times in the books, without the benefit of gunpowder.

In the Hobbit, when he and the Dwarves and Bilbo are treed by the warg-riding goblins, Gandalf toses down little balls of fire that sets the bad guys on fire, and threatens to burn Gandalf and Co. out of the trees.

At Redhorn Pass, Gandalf starts a fire with his staff.

In his battle with the Balrog, he creates what seems to be a wall of fire by breaking his staff.

Another thing to note is that Gandalf bore Narya, the Ring of Fire, which likley gave him these fire abilities.

 

[Tsyr]

Not quite sure what we have missed, Col (Hope this isn't a double post, IE crashed on me while posting...

 

[Tace]

Gandalf's pyrotechnical devices were comples, sophisticated, and potent. We have established
that gunpowder works on Middle Earth. We are now only quibbline about its applications in regards to warfare and weapons.

Roll out the rocket artillery, say I! Send for the arquibusiers and grenadiers, and we'll show those orcs a thing or two...

Sounds like the beginning of a fun campaign. Hmmm... The men of Gondor, having developed rockets, now rush to develop a new weapon before the orcs,guided by Saurman, do.

A great and terrible weapon called a repeating carbine rifle...

Tace

 

[mmadsen]

It looks like a very modern worldview has crept into Middle Earth. Just because we live in an open society with a literate, schooled populace and unswerving faith in technological progress does not mean all societies throughout history (or fictional history) would naturally progress from fireworks in the hands of wizards to mass-produced firearms in the hands of soldiers and farmers.

 

[Col_Pladoh]

It looks like a very modern worldview has crept into Middle Earth. Just because we live in an open society with a literate, schooled populace and unswerving faith in technological progress does not mean all societies throughout history (or fictional history) would naturally progress from fireworks in the hands of wizards to mass-produced firearms in the hands of soldiers and farmers.

Seems to me that the humans of Middle Earth were just about the same as humans of the real world. So, with all due respect, the interest in developing pyrotechnical devices into weapons would as surely exist there as it did here.

As to making gunpowder, I did a fair bit of that as a teenager and into my early 20s. Amateur pyrotechnician and all that. Crude gunpowder is fairly easy to make--sulfur, saltpeter, and charcoal. Not very powerful, but explosive nonetheless. A bit of red phosphorus and potassium chloride is much more potent and really touchy, so bits and pieces missing from those mixing tuff like that is likely indeed.

The point about only the villains being interested in technology is possibly a valid one, though.

So on to orcs with cannons and arquibuses, eh?

Gary