Gunpowder Works on Middle Earth
omedon
First Post
If I remember correctly, and it has been a long time since I read the books, When tolkien is describing what a hobbit is to the reader at the start of The Hobbit he describes them as a forgotten or extinct race in an age long past. Implying that the story we are about to read is indeed part of are own pre-history.
So of course in this world if somebody were to use gunpowder it would 'work', as it does in our own world.
Now I understand your question of why wouldn't Gandalf use gunpowder to defend the gates of Minus Tirith against Saurons approaching armies if he had access to such a powerful weapon.
Well the simplest answer is that he didn't have a powerful weapon. Now it has been a while since I have read the books, but I believe they mention that Gandalf made fireworks. This could easily be just a convenient description. In which Tolkien was merely tring to say that whatever magic Gandalf employed it had the effect or final result which would equate to what we would call fireworks. This is allows the reader to easily and immediately recognize what the author means.
It is much easier for an author such as Tolkien to simply say 'fireworks' rather than give a complete and detailed analysis of the particular magic or rituals involved. Just as when describing hobbits he said that they were like humans but they live longer, are shorter and have fuzzy leathery feet rather than describing them from the ground up. Just as if I were to time travel 800 years into the past I might describe a car as a horseless carriage rather than try to attempt to explain to the villagers the inner workings of a combustion engine.
Now this may or may not have been the case, perhaps my memory has faded and he does specfically mention gunpowder or it is indeed inferred that they are fireworks as we know them with only a few cosmetic magical touches rather than simply an equivalent.
But I think that we can give Tolkien some leeway on this matter.
As for the point of not thinking of using it as a weapon?
That is entirely possible too.
It took the chinese one thousand years, why not Gandalf? Especially in this case; if he was indeed the only one with the knowledge of how to make them, and it seems that this could very well be the case. And if he didn't think of them as having any other value other than for entertainments sake then how likely would it be that he would pass the information on? Not very likely, especially if it required his magic to give them the best effect. With only one mind to contemplate the matter it would be quite likely that a military use would not be thought of. Especially if observers attributed the whole affair as magicians work that could be only be performed by wizards.
I wouldn't press the matter too much in any case. If Tolkien meant to have gunpowder in middle earth then he would have put it in. Unfortuneately he is dead so we will never know if he made a slip or not.
I am currently taking a Classical studies course on Greek & Roman Epics. Reading the Aneid I found that Virgil mentions Sarapedons body lying in Troy. While in the Illiad there is agreement made between Hera and Zeus that Sarapedons body would be moved to his homeland (magically) after his death.
Was this intentional or was it a slip by virgil, or by one of the translators? We will never know.
While this is not the best example. Whenever people attempt to read into one of the classical poems as you have with Tolkien Gary, my teacher usually has this reply:
Perhaps, but if the author truly wanted to get that across it would have played a much more significant role in the story.
So if those are real fireworks or they were accessible to all and readily made then Tolkien would have most likely included that in the stories. And spent a lot more time dealing with the topic.
Because nobody uses gunpowder in the books it is pretty safe to assume that:
A) There was no gunpowder just magical fireworks or,
B) That nobody had thought of using gunpowder agressively or,
C) That Tolkien wasn't thinking clearly when had Gandalf use fireworks for celebrations, and failed to see the implications.
P.S.
I am surprised that you never noticed this before. I noticed it the first time I read the books, but dismissed it for the third reason. If it is not in the book then it is not in the book. This rule works 99.9% of the time.
So of course in this world if somebody were to use gunpowder it would 'work', as it does in our own world.
Now I understand your question of why wouldn't Gandalf use gunpowder to defend the gates of Minus Tirith against Saurons approaching armies if he had access to such a powerful weapon.
Well the simplest answer is that he didn't have a powerful weapon. Now it has been a while since I have read the books, but I believe they mention that Gandalf made fireworks. This could easily be just a convenient description. In which Tolkien was merely tring to say that whatever magic Gandalf employed it had the effect or final result which would equate to what we would call fireworks. This is allows the reader to easily and immediately recognize what the author means.
It is much easier for an author such as Tolkien to simply say 'fireworks' rather than give a complete and detailed analysis of the particular magic or rituals involved. Just as when describing hobbits he said that they were like humans but they live longer, are shorter and have fuzzy leathery feet rather than describing them from the ground up. Just as if I were to time travel 800 years into the past I might describe a car as a horseless carriage rather than try to attempt to explain to the villagers the inner workings of a combustion engine.
Now this may or may not have been the case, perhaps my memory has faded and he does specfically mention gunpowder or it is indeed inferred that they are fireworks as we know them with only a few cosmetic magical touches rather than simply an equivalent.
But I think that we can give Tolkien some leeway on this matter.
As for the point of not thinking of using it as a weapon?
That is entirely possible too.
It took the chinese one thousand years, why not Gandalf? Especially in this case; if he was indeed the only one with the knowledge of how to make them, and it seems that this could very well be the case. And if he didn't think of them as having any other value other than for entertainments sake then how likely would it be that he would pass the information on? Not very likely, especially if it required his magic to give them the best effect. With only one mind to contemplate the matter it would be quite likely that a military use would not be thought of. Especially if observers attributed the whole affair as magicians work that could be only be performed by wizards.
I wouldn't press the matter too much in any case. If Tolkien meant to have gunpowder in middle earth then he would have put it in. Unfortuneately he is dead so we will never know if he made a slip or not.
I am currently taking a Classical studies course on Greek & Roman Epics. Reading the Aneid I found that Virgil mentions Sarapedons body lying in Troy. While in the Illiad there is agreement made between Hera and Zeus that Sarapedons body would be moved to his homeland (magically) after his death.
Was this intentional or was it a slip by virgil, or by one of the translators? We will never know.
While this is not the best example. Whenever people attempt to read into one of the classical poems as you have with Tolkien Gary, my teacher usually has this reply:
Perhaps, but if the author truly wanted to get that across it would have played a much more significant role in the story.
So if those are real fireworks or they were accessible to all and readily made then Tolkien would have most likely included that in the stories. And spent a lot more time dealing with the topic.
Because nobody uses gunpowder in the books it is pretty safe to assume that:
A) There was no gunpowder just magical fireworks or,
B) That nobody had thought of using gunpowder agressively or,
C) That Tolkien wasn't thinking clearly when had Gandalf use fireworks for celebrations, and failed to see the implications.
P.S.
I am surprised that you never noticed this before. I noticed it the first time I read the books, but dismissed it for the third reason. If it is not in the book then it is not in the book. This rule works 99.9% of the time.
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Just finished reading it, omedon. You raise some astute points therein, but I think that the answer lies in a somewhat different direction:
As you noted, Middle-earth is indeed our very own earth, but in a mythical past. In any case, the stories told in the Hobbit and in the Lord of the Rings take place before the time of Abraham (circa 2000 B.C.). At this time, no one had gunpowder.
But what about Gandalf? Well, he was one of the Istari, an angel incarnate in a human body. As such, he would certainly have the knowledge required to make gunpowder (Just read Thomas Aquinas's section on angels in his Summa Theologica: Those angels are smart!). I agree with Gary and others here that Gandalf's fireworks were indeed made with gunpowder.
But Gandalf would have no incentive to share his secret of gunpowder with Dwarves, Elves, or Men. As one of the Istari, he had a specific mission: To help guide the Free Peoples of Middle-earth in their struggle against Sauron. He specifically disavowed defeating Sauron with superior strength. In fact, to use gunpowder against Sauron would be to use the deeds and devices of Mordor. (Read Tolkien's volume of letters to see his attitude toward modern weaponry: He regarded it as the spawn of Mordor.)
Instead, the way to destroy Sauron was to do an end-run around him, so to speak.
As you noted, Middle-earth is indeed our very own earth, but in a mythical past. In any case, the stories told in the Hobbit and in the Lord of the Rings take place before the time of Abraham (circa 2000 B.C.). At this time, no one had gunpowder.
But what about Gandalf? Well, he was one of the Istari, an angel incarnate in a human body. As such, he would certainly have the knowledge required to make gunpowder (Just read Thomas Aquinas's section on angels in his Summa Theologica: Those angels are smart!). I agree with Gary and others here that Gandalf's fireworks were indeed made with gunpowder.
But Gandalf would have no incentive to share his secret of gunpowder with Dwarves, Elves, or Men. As one of the Istari, he had a specific mission: To help guide the Free Peoples of Middle-earth in their struggle against Sauron. He specifically disavowed defeating Sauron with superior strength. In fact, to use gunpowder against Sauron would be to use the deeds and devices of Mordor. (Read Tolkien's volume of letters to see his attitude toward modern weaponry: He regarded it as the spawn of Mordor.)
Instead, the way to destroy Sauron was to do an end-run around him, so to speak.
Bob Aberton
First Post
It mentions in the Hobbit that the goblins seems to have some sort of gunpowder, they "delight in...large explosions...killing large numbers of people at once..."
Plus, the orcs definitely use blasting powder on the walls of Helm's Deep: "they have brought a new devilry, a blasting fire from Orthanc..." (not an acurate translation but you get the point).
Perhaps, as someone mentioned, since Tolkien had an anti-technology bias, he may not have wanted the Free Peoples using the weapons and devices of Mordor (which represents industrialization).
Also, if I were Gandalf, I wouldn't tell anyone how to use or make gunpowder, seeing what it has done to our world today, although he may have told Saruman about it, considering the "blasting fire from Orthanc..."
Heres a thought...what if Gandalf's "fire magics" are really gunpowder? The pines cones and Wargs could easily be some sort of volatile black powder, starting the fire on Caradhras Peak could have utilised gunpowder, and the breaking of the bridge could well have been another gunpowder trick....
Plus, the orcs definitely use blasting powder on the walls of Helm's Deep: "they have brought a new devilry, a blasting fire from Orthanc..." (not an acurate translation but you get the point).
Perhaps, as someone mentioned, since Tolkien had an anti-technology bias, he may not have wanted the Free Peoples using the weapons and devices of Mordor (which represents industrialization).
Also, if I were Gandalf, I wouldn't tell anyone how to use or make gunpowder, seeing what it has done to our world today, although he may have told Saruman about it, considering the "blasting fire from Orthanc..."
Heres a thought...what if Gandalf's "fire magics" are really gunpowder? The pines cones and Wargs could easily be some sort of volatile black powder, starting the fire on Caradhras Peak could have utilised gunpowder, and the breaking of the bridge could well have been another gunpowder trick....
JacktheRabbit
Explorer
The problem with rocket weaponry was more then just the gunpowder. You have heard the Star Spangled banner right? Well there really were rockets used in the attack. Several hundred of them were fired by the British and not a single one was a recorded hit.
Why?
The gunpowder burned inconsistently.
The rocket rubes were not well balanced.
There were no guidefins on the rockets.
All fo this resulted in a weapon being technically possible without being actually effective.
Middle Earth gunpowder weapons would have been even worse for predictability and usefulness.
At best I can see large blasting barrels being used for knocking down siegeworks but that is about it.
Besides the only person that we saw with fireworks was Gandalf. The only people besides him that launched them were two people he knew by name and must have seen him fire them before.
Finally as we saw in the movie at least once Gandalf launched fireworks without doing anything. It is obvious that most of his items were more along the line of pyrotechnics spells than sophisticated application of gunpowder.
Why?
The gunpowder burned inconsistently.
The rocket rubes were not well balanced.
There were no guidefins on the rockets.
All fo this resulted in a weapon being technically possible without being actually effective.
Middle Earth gunpowder weapons would have been even worse for predictability and usefulness.
At best I can see large blasting barrels being used for knocking down siegeworks but that is about it.
Besides the only person that we saw with fireworks was Gandalf. The only people besides him that launched them were two people he knew by name and must have seen him fire them before.
Finally as we saw in the movie at least once Gandalf launched fireworks without doing anything. It is obvious that most of his items were more along the line of pyrotechnics spells than sophisticated application of gunpowder.
Col_Pladoh said:
Ah, well... The Chinese lacked the benefit of working magic and the wisdom of wizards. Besides, we have no idea as to how long fireworls existed on Middle Earth.
Gandalf's pyrotechnical devices were comples, sophisticated, and potent. We have established that gunpowder works on Middle Earth. We are now only quibbline about its applications in regards to warfare and weapons.
Roll out the rocket artillery, say I! Send for the arquibusiers and grenadiers, and we'll show those orcs a thing or two...
Gary
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
Tsyr said:
What's being missed is that Gandalf is a wizard, and deals with wizardly things. Let's assume some of his fireworks ability was not magical. Even if he used gunpowder, it was tantamount to magic - something that Hobbits and Men seemed to have shied away from in the books (remember how the Rohirrim dreaded Lorien?). The Elves didn't seem to go in for flashy magic, so would have not really had much use for it (hey, they did a lot of strange things).
The point is that Gandalf knew about gunpowder and how to make it. But to Men and Hobbits, gunpowder would have been as arcane and mysterious - and dangerous - as magic. We didn't see Gandalf sharing the secrets of, say, the Palantir, so why would he (and other wizards) necessarily have shared the secret of gunpowder? Even if he were willing to share the info, few would have wanted it.
And the point about factories - the ones we know of from the books were masterminded by Saruman, and Sauron if one makes the assumption that there were factories in Mordor. Just more examples of wizardry at work.
My point, ultimately, is that gunpowder and other industrial advances in the books were not invented by amateur inventors; they were the work of wizards. That's why they weren't that widespread in Middle Earth. It struck me that the discussion was bypassing this important point.
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ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
Regarding the fact that some orcs and goblins seemed to have access to gunpowder - remember who they all worked for, ultimately. That's where they got it from, or learned how to make it (assuming they did, and it wasn't just allotted to them as supplies). Plus, the association of gunpowder with servants of the Dark Lord would have made the use of it by the Free Peoples even less likely.
The contentious nature of orcs, with all their infighting, would have made the production of anything, let alone gunpowder, difficult to maintain on a widespread or long-term basis.
The contentious nature of orcs, with all their infighting, would have made the production of anything, let alone gunpowder, difficult to maintain on a widespread or long-term basis.
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I think that it was gun powder but the step from discovering gun powder to making it an effective weapon takes quite a bit. As someone pointed out gun powder rockets are very unreliable, further to make guns and cannons you need fairly advanced metals or at least the ability to utilize the existing recources to create a cannon/gun theat won't blow up in your face.
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