Thoughts on the Failure of Licensed IP in the Hobby: The Lack of Disney-fication is a Feature, not a Bug

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Instead of just telling me that I had a bad example, maybe you could tell me what would have been a better choice if you wanted to show that run time is not a good metric of an IPs total scope or focus?

You could compare it to the hundreds and hundreds of hours of popular TV Westerns from the 50s-70s, yet Western RPGs are a niche of a niche. Where is the Gunsmoke or Bonanza RPG?

 

[The Shadow]

You could compare it to the hundreds and hundreds of hours of popular TV Westerns from the 50s-70s, yet Western RPGs are a niche of a niche. Where is the Gunsmoke or Bonanza RPG?

I suspect it has to do with the desire of gamers for "cool powers" to at least be an option. I experience this myself, but whenever I think about it, it seems odd. Why should it matter? Is it just a matter of tradition, or is there something more?

One thing I'm pretty sure of, though, is that it's not simply an imaginative power fantasy. If that were all that mattered, there would be better ways of getting it.

 

[Staffan]

I suspect it has to do with the desire of gamers for "cool powers" to at least be an option. I experience this myself, but whenever I think about it, it seems odd. Why should it matter? Is it just a matter of tradition, or is there something more?

Very likely. Particularly as, as far as I know, the most successful Western game is Deadlands.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

You could compare it to the hundreds and hundreds of hours of popular TV Westerns from the 50s-70s, yet Western RPGs are a niche of a niche. Where is the Gunsmoke or Bonanza RPG?

....OD&D is a Western RPG.

 

[Alzrius]

....OD&D is a Western RPG.

All joking aside, I can't help but note that we've just recently gotten some further insights from Rob Kuntz into how Gary developed various D&D-isms, via Rob's new release Gargax's Glorious Gewgaws. Do you know what film inspired Gary to make the finger of death spell? Because I do, now.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

All joking aside, I can't help but note that we've just recently gotten some further insights from Rob Kuntz into how Gary developed various D&D-isms, via Rob's new release Gargax's Glorious Gewgaws. Do you know what film inspired Gary to make the finger of death spell? Because I do, now.

I don't! I'll have to check it out. That said ... I love Rob Kuntz's stories, and I love hearing them. I do know that he has, on occasion, like all of us as we get on in age*, had memories that were not corroborated by contemporaneous evidence.


*For a long time, I had a distinct memory of playing a certain module at a certain event. A while back, I checked the publication date and I learned that I could not possibly have played the module I was thinking of - I had just misremembered it, and over time, has confused similar, but unrelated, events. Which wouldn't be that spectacular, except it was an error of seven years.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

....OD&D is a Western RPG.

I think it was more about frontier-pushing than being a Western myself. Which lines up with some Western stuff but not like, the stuff a lot of people think of re: Westerns. Also unfortunately the most problematic aspects of that genre.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I think it was more about frontier-pushing than being a Western myself. Which lines up with some Western stuff but not like, the stuff a lot of people think of re: Westerns. Also unfortunately the most problematic aspects of that genre.

Because that is the element of westerns that are open-ended. D&D style fantasy has an endless supply of mysterious locations where weird stuff happens and a large supply of motivations to go there.
There are only so many times one wants to help the sheriff save the town from the evil what ever.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Because that is the element of westerns that are open-ended. D&D style fantasy has an endless supply of mysterious locations where weird stuff happens and a large supply of motivations to go there.
There are only so many times one wants to help the sheriff save the town from the evil what ever.

I'd argue that, dramatically, whilst there is significant overlap, something like Wagon Train and The Magnificent Seven, say, are basically different genres, and that whilst D&D is undoubtedly influenced by both, it generally has a lot more in common with frontier-pushing Westerns, where it does play out like a Western, which can get a little unfortunate.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I'd argue that, dramatically, whilst there is significant overlap, something like Wagon Train and The Magnificent Seven, say, are basically different genres, and that whilst D&D is undoubtedly influenced by both, it generally has a lot more in common with frontier-pushing Westerns, where it does play out like a Western, which can get a little unfortunate.

I am not sure that we are disagreeing on anything here, are we?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I am not sure that we are disagreeing on anything here, are we?

I'm not really disagreeing as much as nuancing the point, yeah. I feel like the whole "X is actually a Western!" thing is a bit overdone and I think it's kind of interesting that the stuff in Westerns D&D reflects most is the stuff less present in modern Westerns. And part of the reason for that is a realization of the humanity of the people on the "other side", and that they also have a perspective.

 

[Staffan]

I'm not really disagreeing as much as nuancing the point, yeah. I feel like the whole "X is actually a Western!" thing is a bit overdone and I think it's kind of interesting that the stuff in Westerns D&D reflects most is the stuff less present in modern Westerns. And part of the reason for that is a realization of the humanity of the people on the "other side", and that they also have a perspective.

That's definitely a change that has come over D&D and its offshoots in later years. The main thing that comes to mind is the very first AP part from Pathfinder, Burnt Offerings. As the adventure starts, the PCs for one reason or another are in the frontier town of Sandpoint to witness/take part in the dedication of a temple dedicated to a handful of different deities, when the town is attacked by immensely savage and nasty goblins. They're terribly disorganized, setting fire to things randomly, going after the weakest people in town (like children). As the adventure goes on, you learn that they probably have the support of at least some people in town, because otherwise they wouldn't dare do things like that, and IIRC something about different goblin tribes not being able to work together without outside leadership.

I'm sure that wasn't James Jacobs' intention, but the whole thing felt a lot like a western of the old racist kind, where the part of the Indians was played by the goblins instead.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

That's definitely a change that has come over D&D and its offshoots in later years. The main thing that comes to mind is the very first AP part from Pathfinder, Burnt Offerings. As the adventure starts, the PCs for one reason or another are in the frontier town of Sandpoint to witness/take part in the dedication of a temple dedicated to a handful of different deities, when the town is attacked by immensely savage and nasty goblins. They're terribly disorganized, setting fire to things randomly, going after the weakest people in town (like children). As the adventure goes on, you learn that they probably have the support of at least some people in town, because otherwise they wouldn't dare do things like that, and IIRC something about different goblin tribes not being able to work together without outside leadership.

I'm sure that wasn't James Jacobs' intention, but the whole thing felt a lot like a western of the old racist kind, where the part of the Indians was played by the goblins instead.

Yeah that's a sort of more recent, accidental example of the kind that we wouldn't see from Paizo today. Back in the '80s and parts of the '90s, it was quite intentional in that some designers thought it was totally fine to make the evil gnolls or orcs have all the superficial trappings of a Native American culture for example. Whereas others, even in say, 1989, with Taladas were actively working to subvert that (all the most "threatening" cultures in Taladas are human or elven, including the "Mongol Horde" equivalent, who are elves/half-elves mostly).

Over the '90s there was slooooooowly increasing awareness that this assigning oppressed real-world cultures to baddies might not be great, and some clumsy attempts to correct it were made (and adept ones from others), but for whatever reason, 3rd edition and the d20 revolution spurred a lot of what I'd classify as slightly teenage edgelord-y products, and yeah, Burnt Offerings falls into that, and whilst they're careful to avoid giving the goblins any cultural traits which might align them with a real world group (IIRC), they do end up positioning them in an unfortunate way. It wasn't the most inappropriate Paizo/PF1 book either (the less said of that the better).

Ironically this all somehow ended up with people absolutely loving Pathfinder goblins though. Not exactly sure how that happened.

 

[ValamirCleaver]

Ironically this all somehow ended up with people absolutely loving Pathfinder goblins though. Not exactly sure how that happened.

Lilo & Stitch?

 

[Aldarc]

Ironically this all somehow ended up with people absolutely loving Pathfinder goblins though. Not exactly sure how that happened.

They have catchy songs.