GURPS-Share your thoughts

ChristianW said:
On the downside, GURPS can be very complex...and expensive. Running a fantasy game might require a GM to purchase GURPS Campaigns, Characters, Magic, and Fantasy. That's about $140 right there. That's nuts.
Compared to buying a PHB, DMG and MM at $120? Eh...

Also keep in mind that most of those are optional add-ons. You don't really *have* to have GURPS Magic and GURPS Fantasy to run a fantasy game. Back before 4e, I was in several long-running fantasy campaigns with nothing but the basic set. And I've seen several very successful one-shot games using only the freely downloadable GURPS Lite rules. (In contrast, I've never seen a a one-shot game using the D&D SRD - although that might be due more to availability of the D&D vs GURPS books).

[Edit: just checking amazon...
GURPS basic set (capaigns + characters) is $47.19; Fantasy is $23.07; Magic is sold out but let's assume another $23.07. Total: $93.33
D&D PHB+DMG is $37.74; MM is $18.87. Total: $56.61
Those are some more realistic prices to toss around. All in all, a pretty good deal for both, considering how many hours of enjoyment you get out of them...]
 
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Conaill said:
Also keep in mind that most of those are optional add-ons. You don't really *have* to have GURPS Magic and GURPS Fantasy to run a fantasy game. Back before 4e, I was in several long-running fantasy campaigns with nothing but the basic set.
Actually, this is something I would love some feedback on, from those of you who actually have the 4th edition material...

- How essential are GURPS Magic and GURPS Fantasy for playing a fairly standard fantasy game (and I'm not talking a standard D&D-style fantasy game ;)).
- How does this compare with the modularity in 3rd edition? Do you feel you need fewer or more books in 4e?
 

sfgiants said:
I recently started thumbing through a copy of the third edition. Some neat concepts.
A few questions though:

a) what is the difference between third and fourth?
b) how well does Gurps actually play?

Experiences with the system are very welcome :)
I started playing GURPS soon after 2nd Ed. D&D was released (we tried a campaign of 2e but didn't care for it). GURPS was our game of choice for a long time. There are things I love about the GURPS experience and things that irritate me. First, the good stuff:

1) The rules are very modular. You can go lite and not worry about too much detail if you don't feel like it.

2) The supplements are usually very good and contain info to use with ANY system.

3) A true skill based system allows creation of dharacters that you just can't quite get with classes.

...and now the bad

VIRTUALLY NO ADVENTURE SUPPORT!!!!!!!!

This is the main reason I started playing D&D 3E when it came out. With so little time for gaming, much less prep time, I need ready to go adventures that don't require a lot of conversion work. If I had all the free time of my younger days, I would certainly still use GURPS. Why oh why can't SJG have an OGL. :(

3)
 

Conaill said:
Actually, this is something I would love some feedback on, from those of you who actually have the 4th edition material...

- How essential are GURPS Magic and GURPS Fantasy for playing a fairly standard fantasy game (and I'm not talking a standard D&D-style fantasy game ;)).

If you want to use the GURPS Magic system, the basic book has 11 pages of spells and the GURPS Magic book almost a couple hundred. I really don't see a whole lot of point to GURPS Fantasy; it has little GURPS-specific content, and most people who have been playing a while are familiar with or have alternate sources for the general fantasy discussion.

- How does this compare with the modularity in 3rd edition? Do you feel you need fewer or more books in 4e?

There's no question that you need fewer books, since the mean book size went from 128 pages to 256 pages. You could survive easily without GURPS Campaigns. GURPS Characters covers most of the Basic Set and Compendium I, and GURPS Magic covers GURPS Magic and GURPS Grimore.
 

ChristianW said:
On the downside, GURPS can be very complex...and expensive. Running a fantasy game might require a GM to purchase GURPS Campaigns, Characters, Magic, and Fantasy. That's about $140 right there. That's nuts.

61$ on ebay excluding postage (packaged together) for the Basic Set and Fantasy bought new. :)

Another plus side is that the exhaustiveness of GURPS doesn't really encourage buying countless supplements to trawl for new feats, prestige classes, rules etc.

With those four books, I feel I have pretty much everything I could want to run a fantasy campaign except a setting (I use my own - something I think GURPS generally encourages in all aspects: Making the game your own. Unlike D&D, the core books gives you the tools for that) and Fantasy, ruleswise, can easily be skipped. It's invaluable as inspiration and exploring fantasy in general though.

A 4th edition version of the GURPS Fantasy Bestiary is the only thing I would like to see.

The thing about GURPS is that the books may be expensive and few, but they are virtually always of very high quality. No wasted investments there. Magic gives an incredibly thorough treatment of magic that allows you to shape the kind of magic you want to your own preferences, the basic set gives you all the rules you want to run any kind of campaign you want, unless you are not familiar with the genre you are delving into, in which case a setting book is probably needed.
 


GRUPS was always one of those games that I wanted so much to like. I loved the way that game handles character creation. I loved the freedom of having a universal system that could run any setting I could imagine.

Off and on, I had some good times with GURPS. But in the end, the system was simply far too rules-heavy for my tastes. There came a point when preparing and running the game was more work than fun.

I’ve never regreted a GURPS supplement I’ve bought, though. Very good quality, and very well researched- I use all the fluff with other systems.
 

There are things about GURPS that bug me so badly that I have never got around to actually playing a game. A lot of them are variations of the theme of confounding things together 'to make the game simple', and then disambiguating them with special cases , so that you end up with a game that is more complicated than if you treated them separately from the start. And with runs rougher.

GURPS stats are one example. Steve Jackson started from the beginning with the axiom that a 'modern' (this was 1984 or thereabouts) RPG would have no more than four character stats. He therefore shoehorned cunning, book-learning, perceptiveness, empathy, firmness of resolve, etc. inot one mental stat: IQ. And he shoehorned agility, manual dexterity, and hand-eye co-ordination into one physical stat (DX); strength, and (at one stage) charisma and good looks into another (ST), and size, physical toughness, stamina, and good immune system inot a third. Don't get me wrong, that can work fine in a simplistic and quirky system. But Steve Jackson didn't want simplistic and quirky. So he introduced a bunch of advantages and disadvantages such as wealth, social status, appearance, some of which partially modify the effects of stats (eg. to reduce agility skills below DX but leave manual dexterity skills alone or vice-versa). Some of these in effect optionally increase the number of stats. Others represent a compulsory choice (eg. of welath, status, physical attractiveness) that is just like a stat except for not being on the same numerical scale as the stats, and therefore not being suitable to base a skill on or to roll against. GURPS has in effect about 12 stats, but eight of them are kludgey special cases, and four or five of them don't do things they ought.

There is a similar nest of horrors surrounding the interaction of weapon type with armour type. The original system had three types of damage so that it would need different types of armour (clever). But it worked back-to-front and had a nasty trap in which you had to work out what part of your target you would hit before your could determine whether you did hit. In tidying that up without ever acknowledging that any of the initial design decisions had been misguided, GURPS has ended up with a hideously involved procedure in which the weapons' damage roll is modified by the armour's DR, which has previously been modified by the weapons armour divisor, with a special qualification for whether the armour is flexible, and then by the weapon's damage type. And the procedure is modified in many cases by notes for specific wepons and specific kinds of armour. There are 13 types of weapon damage (only eight if you disregards 'afflication', burning, corrosion, special, and toxic, considering only mechanical damage), besides armour divisors, and some types of armour still need different DRs against listed damage types.

Many people are blessed by not being bugged by the sorts of things that bug me. Some of them seem to like GURPS.

Even I could probably play and enjoy GURPS if I could get past the desire to disambiguate the stats, introduce systematic armour rules and tidy up the weapons types, etc. If GURPS would open and play I would probably enjoy it well enough. But to set up a GURPS campaign I have to tabulate the specifics of the weapons and armour in my SF settings, design a tech level system that captures the details I am concerned with, tabulate specifics for the status systems and rank systems of my social institutions. And while I am attempting that I am always overtaken with an irresistable desire to change the things that bug me.
 
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