log in or register to remove this ad

 

5E GWM+Longbow

TrueBagelMan

Explorer
Now hear me out, Great Weapon Master I know is meant for heavy melee weapons, but still technically works for a longbow. If you used as an improvised weapon it technically is a heavy weapon used as melee. To use the damage increase it needs to be a heavy weapon and used for melee. Not a melee weapon that’s heavy. Did I find an interesting way to use GWM or did I just read it wrong?

Great Weapon Master Feat.
You’ve learned to put the weight of a weapon to your advantage, letting its momentum empower your strikes. You gain the following benefits:
  • On your turn, when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points with one, you can make one melee weapon attack as a bonus action.
  • Before you make a melee attack with a heavy weapon that you are proficient with, you can choose to take a -5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack’s damage.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


If you strike something with your longbow, don't expect to be able to use it as a longbow for much longer. It is an instrument optimized to handle enormous stresses of a variety almost entirely different than the ones you have just subjected it to. If you want to be able to bludgeon somebody with your ranged weapon, I recommend you instead invest in a crossbow with a sturdy butt.

I'm also not sure what would be so great about using a longbow with GWM even if it did work.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
No. That is all. You aren't proficient with improvised weapons and so don't qualify for the -5/+10. However...

If you had Tavern Brawler, then we'd have something to argue about, because then you would be proficient with improvised weapons. That's pretty silly, but it at least meets the requirements of the RAW for GWM.
 

MikalC

Villager
An improvised weapon is NOT a heavy weapon.
its category is improvised. That’s why, regardless of what you use, the improvised weapon does the same damage.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
An improvised weapon is NOT a heavy weapon.
its category is improvised. That’s why, regardless of what you use, the improvised weapon does the same damage.
You sure about that? It's a weapon with the Heavy quality that counts as improvised in melee. It meets the three points for the second part of GWM. Making a melee attack? Check. Does the weapon have the heavy quality? Check. Is the weapon one the character is proficient in? Check. The fact that it counts as improvised in melee doesn't change any of those answers, as silly as the result might be.
 

MikalC

Villager
You sure about that? It's a weapon with the Heavy quality that counts as improvised in melee. It meets the three points for the second part of GWM. Making a melee attack? Check. Does the weapon have the heavy quality? Check. Is the weapon one the character is proficient in? Check. The fact that it counts as improvised in melee doesn't change any of those answers, as silly as the result might be.
its a weapon with the heavy quality when used as a longbow.

when it becomes an improvised weapon it loses all traits, doing 1d4+str damage only.
The only quality you get for using a ranged weapon as a melee is the 1d4+str with a str based attack roll.

as such, it loses the heavy tag when used as a melee weapon. If the ranged weapon kept its qualities the rules would say so, but they don’t. They only say an improvised weapon does 1d4+str. Whether it’s a table leg, table, sack of rocks, or a longbow in melee.
Edit: it also can be thrown at a 20/60 range.
 

Krachek

Adventurer
Now hear me out, Great Weapon Master I know is meant for heavy melee weapons, but still technically works for a longbow. If you used as an improvised weapon it technically is a heavy weapon used as melee. To use the damage increase it needs to be a heavy weapon and used for melee. Not a melee weapon that’s heavy. Did I find an interesting way to use GWM or did I just read it wrong?

Great Weapon Master Feat.
You’ve learned to put the weight of a weapon to your advantage, letting its momentum empower your strikes. You gain the following benefits:
  • On your turn, when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points with one, you can make one melee weapon attack as a bonus action.
  • Before you make a melee attack with a heavy weapon that you are proficient with, you can choose to take a -5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack’s damage.
I think you read what you want to read.
it need some common sense to read the rules, you may turn the sentence up side down, and try to find untold mysteries, but there are not.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
its a weapon with the heavy quality when used as a longbow.

when it becomes an improvised weapon it loses all traits, doing 1d4+str damage only.
The only quality you get for using a ranged weapon as a melee is the 1d4+str with a str based attack roll.
as such, it loses the heavy tag when used as a melee weapon. If the ranged weapon kept its qualities the rules would say so, but they don’t. They only say an improvised weapon does 1d4+str. Whether it’s a table leg, table, sack of rocks, or a longbow in melee.
Edit: it also can be thrown at a 20/60 range.
Can you show me where the rule is that says that it loses all it's other traits? Or is that your opinion? It certainly doesn't say that in the PHB under the listing for improvised weapons. All the PHB says is that ranged weapons used in melee do a d4 damage. Nothing there about losing their descriptors.

As far as the bolded text goes, I'd bet that's where we differ. All they do say is that is does a d4 damage in melee. They don't say anything else changes. It even makes sense that it doesn't change: the Heavy quality refers to, I quote, the size and bulk of the weapon. That doesn't change just because you're thumping someone with it. Would you allow a Gnome to attack with a longbow in melee without disadvantage?

The crux of this is that you argue that the longbow loses all it's other qualities when used in melee. That's what you would need to prove is the case in order to be right. I'm not being confrontational, the whole idea is a little silly for that, but there's a key bit of interpretation here.
 


Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
This is a wonderful example of a place where the 5e mantra "Rulings, not rules" shows its strength.
Goodness yes. This works based on the RAW, but I'd never actually allow it at a table, despite what my post above might lead you to believe. RAW is one thing, what works at the table is something else.
 

MikalC

Villager
Can you show me where the rule is that says that it loses all it's other traits? Or is that your opinion? It certainly doesn't say that in the PHB under the listing for improvised weapons. All the PHB says is that ranged weapons used in melee do a d4 damage. Nothing there about losing their descriptors.

As far as the bolded text goes, I'd bet that's where we differ. All they do say is that is does a d4 damage in melee. They don't say anything else changes. It even makes sense that it doesn't change: the Heavy quality refers to, I quote, the size and bulk of the weapon. That doesn't change just because you're thumping someone with it. Would you allow a Gnome to attack with a longbow in melee without disadvantage?

The crux of this is that you argue that the longbow loses all it's other qualities when used in melee. That's what you would need to prove is the case in order to be right here. I'm not being confrontational here, the whole idea is a little silly for that, but there's a key bit of interpretations here.
the improvised weapon rules state everything that an improvised weapons is and can do. Every weapon type does the same. Improvised weapon does NOT say it keeps traits when a ranged weapon is used in melee.

otherwise a crossbow used as a improvised weapon would have the loading quality and would need to be reloaded before making another melee attack with it.

And what are the traits of an improvised weapon?
1d4+str, ability to be thrown at a range of 20/60.

that’s it.
Specifically: “An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object). If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet. “

unless you’d like to argue that a crossbow needs to be reloaded before used again as an improvised melee weapon then your argument doesn’t hold water. You can’t pick and choose if you think qualities carry over. Regardless, 5e is specific- what a rule says is what happens. If it isn’t in there, then it doesn’t exist. And nowhere in improvised weapons does it state that it transfers existing qualities from the base weapon when using ranged in melee
 


TrueBagelMan

Explorer
There is no point of having an argument over a useless bit of the game since no one would use a dagger with no proficiency instead of a greatsword with proficiency.
 

Larrin

Entropic Good
So, what does the PHB say about improvised weapons: (Page 147-148 in my copy)
1) if an improvised weapon is similar to another weapon (chair leg=club) it can be treated as such (at DMs option can use prof bonus)
2)if it bears no resemblance to a weapon it deal 1d4 of appropriate damage.
3) If using a ranged weapon for melee or throwing a non-thrown melee weapon it alse deals 1d4 damage.

Maybe,you could argue 1) is applicable in which case it would only be considered heavy if the weapon its similar to is heavy. I really don't think hitting someone with a longbow is not similar to any of the heavy weapons on the list, it's probably a quarterstaff, which isn't heavy, but you could get a 1d8 out of using it two handed and a prof bonus.

3) is the most obvious answer, as it is literally what you are doing. It doesn't mention the preservation of any properties, nor does it mention their loss. This is very much a rulings, but if it is still heavy, yet only does 1d4 damage, I feel it isn't as heavy as other weapons. I suspect few enough DMs would be convinced that your d4 attack is a heavy weapon attack, and those that did would do so because there really isn't much harm in letting someone with GWP use a d4 weapon instead of a better weapon.
 

MikalC

Villager
There is no point of having an argument over a useless bit of the game since no one would use a dagger with no proficiency instead of a greatsword with proficiency.
well to be fair you may be an archer who only has a bow for whatever reason and you NEED to use melee. Or you just wanna butt (as in weapon) stroke someone with a crossbow across the face.
 

Theo R Cwithin

I cast "Baconstorm!"
Personally, I'm not adding the Heavy trait to a bulky/heavy wagon wheel or dead goblin when used as an improvised weapon, so I'm definitely not ruling that a longbow retains the Heavy property if used as an improvised weapon. Heck, a longbow is arguably easier for a gnome to use as a big stick than as a longbow.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
@MikalC - I think your argument about weapon traits falls short of being supported by the rules. The rules give properties, and change them. There is nothing that says in the case of a ranged weapon used in melee that it loses it's other properties, or that 'improvised' somehow supercedes all of them. All it does is change the damage type and what proficiencies count. Saying that it does anything other than that simply isn't supported by the RAW. Keep in mind, this is just about the straight RAW, I personally don't think GWM should apply.

Lets look at a related question. If you throw a great axe, it counts as improvised. Does it also lose the heavy property in that situation? Thus allowing it to be thrown by small sized creatures with no disadvantage? Just curious what you'd say about the same rule in a different application.
 

TrueBagelMan

Explorer
Let’s agree that improvised weapons in DnD isn’t explained the best. It makes no sense that the gnome can throw a greataxe or a longbow has the same effects of as a great sword.
 

Flamestrike

Adventurer
Now hear me out, Great Weapon Master I know is meant for heavy melee weapons, but still technically works for a longbow. If you used as an improvised weapon it technically is a heavy weapon used as melee. To use the damage increase it needs to be a heavy weapon and used for melee. Not a melee weapon that’s heavy. Did I find an interesting way to use GWM or did I just read it wrong?

Great Weapon Master Feat.
You’ve learned to put the weight of a weapon to your advantage, letting its momentum empower your strikes. You gain the following benefits:
  • On your turn, when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points with one, you can make one melee weapon attack as a bonus action.
  • Before you make a melee attack with a heavy weapon that you are proficient with, you can choose to take a -5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack’s damage.
Thats presuming the heavy quality carries over when used as an improvised weapon.
 

Most Liked Threads

Advertisement2

Advertisement4

Top