D&D 5E hand use rules of D&D: object interaction, spellcasting focus and components

Well of course. I was just trying to help [MENTION=6788312]Greenstone.Walker[/MENTION] identify his ephemeral feeling of dislike for the scenario by telling him why I dislike it.

My solution is not fit for print. (Well, not fit for print under Zapp's authoritarian rule)

Yeah, because I pay so much attention to what non-moderators have to say. :) I don't like the rule myself simply from a vision of how the fiction of the world works, and I don't like feat taxes.

Of course the real solution is that if you're a spellcaster, don't use a shield until you after you take the war caster feat.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Yeah, because I pay so much attention to what non-moderators have to say. :) I don't like the rule myself simply from a vision of how the fiction of the world works, and I don't like feat taxes.

Of course the real solution is that if you're a spellcaster, don't use a shield until you after you take the war caster feat.

Well, my solution is simply "This is too fiddly for me to care about. Police yourself if you care about it."
 

Imagine the PHB is blank on the subjects of hand use, object interaction and spell components.
Wow, surprisingly easy. And liberating, thanks.

Now it's your task, Oofta, to write up a set of rules that result in characters doing much the same things the PHB allows them to, yet avoids loopholes such as the ones we have been talking about.

Free Hand: some actions will require that you have a hand free, while some items must be held or 'wielded' to be of use. Most characters will have only two hands, so you have to decide what you're doing with your hands. You make that decision at the start of your turn, swapping out the items, any, in either or both hands if called for. Hands not used to hold/wield (and thus in any way benefit from) items, are 'free' for actions requiring one.

Interacting with attended items: Any item you have on your person is assumed to be either held or sheathed/in some other container/tucked into a belt/etc. Such items are 'attended' and you can swap attended items at the start of your turn. Pulling out an attended item at any other time requires a free hand and an action, on your turn, or reaction, if it is not your turn. You can also voluntarily drop an item at any time on your turn, or right before taking a reaction, which gives you a free hand and makes the item unattended. You cannot generally interact with items attended by other creatures unless you first grapple them. Once grappling, you can attempt to wrest a stowed item, the procedure is the same as for escaping the grapple, which you must also then do separately.

Interacting with unattended items: An item not held or carried by a creature is unattended. Most some items rest on a surface, typically the ground or perhaps hanging from the wall, ceiling, branches of a tree (like the Golden Fleece), etc - though it's not impossible, the fantastic D&D world, that you might find an unattended item floating in the air. You can pick up an unattended item you're adjacent to at the start of your turn, when you swap your attended items, the item you pick up is held and becomes attended (you can swap it for another attended item at the start of your next turn or use an action to stow it). During your turn, if you have a free hand, you can pick up an adjacent unattended item as an action, making it held & attended and the hand no longer free. You can use your reaction to catch an item tossed to you, or to pick up an item that becomes unattended adjacent to you, as with using an action, you must have a hand free, the item becomes held & attended, and the hand is no longer free. If you try to snatch up an item that is tossed past you, that the DM rules was tossed badly, or that another creature is trying to snatch, the DM may call for a check.

Spell Components: Spell components fall into 4 categories, Somatic (gestures/movement), Verbal (words and other sounds), Material (supplies expended when the spell is cast) and Foci (items used but not consumed in the spellcasting). You must have all the components required by a spell ready to use, including having any focus or material in hand - typically, you'll swap the focus/material into your hands at the start of your turn. Since many spells that use foci may use the same focus, they are particularly convenient, as you can decide which of them to cast later in your turn. Some spells will state exceptions, for instance, that the material component need only be on your person, or that the focus can also be a weapon, or that the verbal component need not be intelligible speech.

Somatic Components: Unless otherwise stated, somatic components require a free hand, so a bound or grappling caster cannot generally use them. Somatic components must be precise relative to the caster and the local gravity plane, so casting while moving (spells should be cast before or after taking your move, not during it), riding a mount or vehicle, climbing, flying or crawling can all be difficult. Similarly, the Blinded, Frightened, Grappled, Prone or Restrained caster will find it difficult or impossible to use Somatic components. The DM may call for a Concentration or DEX check to use Somatic components in difficult circumstances. A spell that has somatic components provokes an attack of opportunity if cast in melee.

Verbal Components: Unless otherwise stated, verbal components are intelligible words that must be clearly spoken by the caster, loudly enough to be clearly heard in the general area of the spell's effect. Being gagged, out of breath, or holding your breath - including the Deafened, Frightened, and Poisoned conditions, having taken the Dash action the previous turn or moving while casting, or any level of Exhaustion - make it difficult or impossible to use verbal components. The DM may allow a Concentration check to cast a spell with verbal components in less than ideal conditions.

Material Components: Unless otherwise stated, material components must be held to be used and are consumed (vanish, erased from the character's sheet, and unrecoverable) when the spell is completed. Depending on the spell description, the caster may need to hold materials in one hand and make gestures with the other, make gestures with the materials, or use both hands to manipulate the materials. Any environmental condition that makes handling small/delicate items difficult can prevent or hinder the use of material components. Being immersed in water, for instance, would spoil many materials. High winds could blow powders, partchment, and the like from the casters grasp, and so forth. The DM can call for Concentration or DEX check to keep hold of materials in difficult circumstances.

Foci: Unless otherwise stated, a focus must be held to be used. When a spell calls for both material components and a focus, one hand is needed for each. Somatic components can generally be done with the hand holding the focus, though the spell description may give exceptions. Foci are generally solid, easily grasped items, not unlike weapons in their practicality, and a focus rarely makes a spell more difficult to cast. If, for some reason, the focus is adversely affected by the environment, the DM may call for a Concentration or other check to use it successfully.



There's some classic feel for ya'. ;) Not so much simplicity, though, but that's how I role...
 

So, for the nth time in this thread, what do you want? You don't like the current limitations, and you don't like any solution which circumvents those limitations. What form of limitation would actually satisfy your as-yet-undefined requirements? What is it acceptable to you for spellcasters to be able to do while holding weapons, and what should they not be able to do?

If you actually define those requirements, we can get to work on tailoring the simplest possible ruleset to satisfy them.
Look, you don't get to pretend to be reasonable without getting called on it.

What I want? I've several times said what I want: for people to imagine the current rules language in this area to be wiped, and to see what they would come up with instead. I've even given a complete (well, roughly so) example of what that might look like. You don't have to like it, but don't pretend you haven't seen it.

It isn't about changing the game, or making it run differently. It's about envisioning a rules rewrite.

To end up with much of the same consequences of today's rules, minus the stupid crap, only expressed in a clear concise friendly simple manner, instead of the hot mess we have today.
 

I've given you my answer multiple times. I'd keep the existing rules but
and for the multipleth time: this ain't about keeping the existing rules, but to toss them. It's the very phrasings of the existing rules I want gone, not their intentions and consequences (well, with a couple of exceptions).

I started the thread to specifically ask about, wait, let me quote myself: do you know of any effort to rewrite the rules on what you can "do with your hands" in a simple, clean and easy way?

Since your answer is clearly "no", feel free to hold it right there.
 

As a (very) rough sketch to show you what I want and what I think would serve the game MUCH better, would be to scrap the existing rules entirely and instead base a new set of rules on "stances", and for each stance define what actions are restricted or outright impossible, with the notion that anything not specifically limited is okay.

Also, a ruleset that much more defers to the DMs rulings and common sense, rather than trying to be exhaustive.

Something like this (again, a very rough outline, more meant to steer the thread than to be a complete proposal).

---

At the start of each of your turns, you decide upon a stance (see below), which you are assumed to remain in until the start of your next turn. There is no cost (in actions) in switching stances, except when you switch into or from a shield stance - to do this you need to spend your action on the don/doff action.

One-handed stance. Example: you wield a Longsword with one hand, having the other hand free. You can't benefit from a shield. You can cast spells or you can hold a lantern or you can manipulate one object (choose one each turn).

Shield stance. Example: you wield a warhammer in one hand and wear a shield in the other. You can cast divine spells. You can't hold a lantern, cast arcane spells, or manipulate objects.

Empty stance. Example: you hold nothing. You can cast spells, hold a lantern, manipulate one object, and manipulate one more object (choose any two each turn). You have no threat range and can't make Opportunity Attacks unless your unarmed attacks deal more than 1 damage. You can spend your action to don a shield, turning this stance into a shield stance and reducing your choice to one each turn.

Two-handed melee stance. Example: you wield a Greatsword with both hands. You can't benefit from a shield, you can't cast spells and you can't hold a lantern or manipulate objects.

Two-handed ranged stance. Example: you wield a Longbow with both hands. You can cast spells or manipulate an object. You can't benefit from a shield, and you can't hold a lantern. You have no threat range and can't make Opportunity Attacks unless your unarmed attacks deal more than 1 damage.

Two-weapon stance. Example: you wield two shortswords. You can't benefit from a shield, you can't cast spells and you can't hold a lantern or manipulate objects.


---

Simple huh? That might actually be it - EVERYTHING you need. (I might have forgotten an obvious stance, remember this is rough)

Don't worry about the details - the main point is that the 5E rules could have been VASTLY more newb-friendly and fast and simple! :)

Do note a little polish is probably needed. For instance how "you hold nothing" allows "cast spells" - this assumes you can grab your focus that turn (if you use a spellcasting focus or have otherwise found a magic wand etc). Holding a "lantern" is obviously not meant to exclude torches or your adventure company's banner (or whatever). "Manipulating an object" includes everything from sheathing a weapon and pulling out a scroll from your gear to picking up a key from a table or locking the chest with the key.

Hopefully you will see how the focus is on what you do during your action, not how you got there. Switching between stances implicate drawing and sheathing just the right amount of gear without needlessly making you worry about it.

Then you might add a few bits and bobs. I'm mainly thinking of differentiating between spells with and without material and somatic components. You should be able to cast spells with neither even if you made another "choice" (such as holding a torch). We probably need give Bards two seconds of thought.

It's important to me that we analyse the rules we end up with so the BS move "drop weapon cast spell pick up weapon" is entirely impossible.

The rule "you can use the same hand for both material and somatic component" is assumed, since we say you can cast your spells with one hand free, so no need to get that complex.

Focus-less spellcasters (such as Arcane Knights) are shafted, but then again, so they are in the core rules (I think?).

Before you start getting into complex rules like this, it's probably important to understand the reasoning behind the rules:

a) A spell focus must be something you hold in your hand.
b) A spell focus replaces the material component - so if your shield is a focus, that takes care of that.
c) A spell that requires a material and somatic component can use a single hand, where retrieving the material component is a part of the somatic component of casting the spell. Since the spell focus replaces the material component, the act of using the spell focus supplies the somatic component.
d) A spell that doesn't use a material component is different. The act of using the focus doesn't apply, because a spell with no material component doesn't use a spell focus. So now the spell focus (the shield) is just something in your hand preventing you from using the somatic component.

So here's a much simpler solution

1. A spell focus is an item that must be held in your hand.
2. A spell focus replaces material and/or somatic components.
3. A caster can cast a spell that requires a material and/or somatic component(s) with both hands occupied provided one of the items is a spell focus.

Problem solved. As long as the item that is held in one of your hands is a spell focus, then you can cast any spell with any types of components (except those with material components that can't be replaced by a spell focus).
 


I agree that it's fiddly, but two simple modifications makes it somewhat workable. I allow the spellcasting focus to work on spells that have a somatic component, but no material component. I have also created the buckler, which is a +1 AC shield that keeps the hand free (but cannot be used for a weapon attack). Between these two, almost every class can use a focus or component pouch with very little difficulty (TWF casters need War Caster feat).

Another option is to change the rules for S and M components. I would suggest: Somatic components require that your hands are unrestrained, and material components require you possess the items or focus on your person. This keeps the hands from being required (but keeps bound casters limited) so it reduces the amount of fiddly-ness, but such a major change to the visuals isn't good IMO. YMMV.

Historically a buckler is literally a small hand-held shield. A piece of armor strapped to the forearm is a vambrace. You may not care.
 

*Or rule that dropping a weapon still counts as their free object interaction for the round.
This, or something along these lines. The core of the problem as I understand it is that the rules say dropping a weapon, doing something else, then picking it back up from the ground is pretty close to a "free action", when in reality, it takes a fair amount of attention and effort. So solve the problem by requiring the proper amount of attention and effort. Now, I do think that dropping something is and ought to be pretty close to free. One can imagine without trouble, say, a fighter dropping his sword to catch a thrown item or reach out and grapple a foe. It's the pick-up part that strains credulity. Make it cost a full action, or some movement, or something.
 

First off, the main concern here isn't complete fidelity to the existing rules.

The goal is to completely throw out the existing rules, and in their place bring in something completely different and much easier to use and understand...

...that just so happens to allow all the good stuff you can do now, and disallowing the few too-good combinations (just as the current rules mostly does).

If you prefer to shuck the existing rules and replace them with ...nothing (but common sense) I respect that, but it isn't much of a thought experiment.

Herein I'm trying to envision what rules the PHB should have had. The assumption is that it will need some rules on this, or there is nothing for the thread to discuss :)

OK, but all of your links and specific complaints are about the spellcasting rules related to stuff in your hands.

What else is a problem? I can't think of any offhand. But I've shifted to a new approach to combat that makes all of this irrelevant in my campaign anyway, so I'm probably just missing it.
 

Remove ads

Top