Handful of questions!

[green slime]

Not only does the touch AC increase incredibly slowly, the Fighter 2 / Wiz X is actually a much worse character powerwise than the Wiz (X+2); he is an entire spell level behind (!), and only +1 BAB and a fistful of hp (6 on average) better.

Spellcasters need more and better spells, and should not overly concern themselves with the trivial or mundane.

 

[billd91]

Touch AC does become pretty easy to hit, even for wizards with their relatively piddly BAB. I agree in many cases it may be too easy. However, keep in mind that any ranged touch attack at a creature fighting in melee with anybody imposes a -4 to hit if the wizard doesn't have precise shot.

I'm running a game with a warmage in it. She casts lots of orb spells. That -4 to hit has a pretty big effect from time to time, even at 15th level, since she chose not to invest in point blank shot and precise shot.

 

[Mordion]

I did look at the attack section, it doesnt specifically mention that the touch/ranged touch attacks get the bonus, its in the section but it doesnt say specifically.

It doesn't say specifically because there are really just two types of attacks, melee and ranged, both of which are very clear about what is added together to come up with your attack bonus.

From the SRD:

Touch Attacks

Some attacks disregard armor, including shields and natural armor. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee).

When you make a touch attack you're just making an attack that happens to only have to touch the opponent in order to deal damage. It's not spelled out in the rules because it's the same as a regular melee or ranged attack.

If you're not convinced go into the monster manual and look at the (ranged) touch attack bonuses for monsters. For example, gauths and beholders, in both cases their ranged touch attack bonus is BAB+Dex mod+size mod.

 

[Luguolo]

i was adding that to the person who had said it was plainly in the book, where it said make a touch attack roll, not just an attack roll, leaving an opening for modified rules. i was saying i had actually checked the book, and was confirming that was all, and i also stated i was only seeking answers to the option of not including BAB, not wether it was the acutal rule or not.

 

[El Mahdi]

...my biggest fear now, is still around the BAB add to touch attacks... i know my groups arcane cannon is going to be PUMPING out orbs with that, because we have a few in-group duels and added the BAB makes it so his 10d6 orb of frost would almost never miss... i mean we are all level 10, the highest touch ac we have is 14, and he now gets 5 (bab) + 5 (20 dex) on his rolls... i mean 4 or better = doom?!?! ...

This right here is why I use a Defensive Progression and a Defense Roll for combat (you can find both in Unearthed_Arcana - although, since the pdf's are no longer available, all you can do - at least legally - is pick up an used copy for sale - like the above link to Amazon).

I've always had a problem with the fact that in D&D, you can get better at attacking but you never get better at defending (except for increasing your Dex, better armor or better magic items). If you incorporate a Defensive progression, then touch attacks would be vs. 10+dex mod+defensive progression, instead of just 10+dex mod. If you also use a defensive roll, then touch attacks would be vs. d20+dex mod+defensive progression. Touch attacks become less of an almost automatic thing when these are incorporated.

 

[Luguolo]

This right here is why I use a Defensive Progression and a Defense Roll for combat (you can find both in Unearthed_Arcana - although, since the pdf's are no longer available, all you can do - at least legally - is pick up an used copy for sale - like the above link to Amazon).

I've always had a problem with the fact that in D&D, you can get better at attacking but you never get better at defending (except for increasing your Dex, better armor or better magic items). If you incorporate a Defensive progression, then touch attacks would be vs. 10+dex mod+defensive progression, instead of just 10+dex mod. If you also use a defensive roll, then touch attacks would be vs. d20+dex mod+defensive progression. Touch attacks become less of an almost automatic thing when these are incorporated.

i do indeed have that book, its one of my favorites (you know your a geek when your favorite book in a game of rules is the additional rules book...) but i hadnt seen one on a defence progression, i will look into it!! thank you!

 

[Theroc]

Defense Bonus :: d20srd.org

Not sure if that's the same thing you two are talking about, but that MIGHT help as well.

 

[El Mahdi]

Yeah, that's it!

The Defensive Roll part is simply taking away the base 10 for AC and rolling a D20 to which you add your modifiers (dex mod, defense, armor, magic items, etc.). Or you can use the slightly different Players_Roll_all_the_Dice:_Attacking_and_Defending.

I didn't realize the D20 SRD site had the Unearthed Arcana stuff also. Very cool.

Here's the link Luguolo, and the Hypertext d20srd.org homepage.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

*edit 1* so questions 2 and 3 have been answered, and i feel kinda silly for not seeing them that way lol, but my 1st entry was less about pracitcality and just the basics of how strong it could be! so, to conclude so far:

I did look at the attack section, it doesnt specifically mention that the touch/ranged touch attacks get the bonus, its in the section but it doesnt say specifically.

my biggest fear now, is still around the BAB add to touch attacks... i know my groups arcane cannon is going to be PUMPING out orbs with that, because we have a few in-group duels and added the BAB makes it so his 10d6 orb of frost would almost never miss... i mean we are all level 10, the highest touch ac we have is 14, and he now gets 5 (bab) + 5 (20 dex) on his rolls... i mean 4 or better = doom?!?!

I have a couple of things that may or may not be of help.

First, I notice that your arcane spellcaster has a 20 Dex, which makes it seem like your characters probably have very high attributes. This could be contributing to the perceived problems.

Second, most touch spells (with a few notable exceptions) are not that terribly powerful. The orb spells that you've previously referenced will be dealing approximately 35 points of damage (to a single creature) for the cost of a 4th level spell. That is not all that great, even with an 85% chance of success.

Third, spellcasters are typically more powerful than non-spellcasters (particularly at higher levels) anyway, so some of the trouble you are having could also be coming from that disparity in power levels.

Fourth, its only a game, and doesn't have to be perfect. If you really feel that the base attack bonus should not be applied to touch attack rolls, try that out. If it doesn't work out like you expected, change it back.

 

[green slime]

Duelling? DnD isn't really made for Duelling, it is supposed to a co-operative event.

But it can be fun to try out. But 35 hp on average, Max 60 hp, at level 10 for a 4th level spell, isn't too impressive. He isn't going to autokill any single one 10th level character with that unless he gets very lucky.

How many 4th level spell slots: 5 at most (without items, of course) if he is a specialist.

Any self-respecting rogue or dex fighter should have a much higher Touch AC (15+).

A fighter, paladin, or barbarian should have hp enough to wade through the first attack. Don't forget Combat Expertise in these situations (up to +5 dodge bonus)

A cleric will feel the heat, but generally patch himself up. He should also possibly have access to other bonuses that do affect touch AC (sacred, dodge, deflection (shield of faith) and miss chances (entropic shield, etc) and can completely negate the whole ranged touch with darkness, or obscuring cloud, and the like. Furthermore at 10th level, can give himself SR 22 for 10 minutes...

Even with 85% to hit with the touch AC, SR 22 means the 10th level wizard with Greater Spell Penetration (+4, so he needs to roll 8 or more) will only succeed in both hitting and penetrating the SR (85% * 65%) = 55.25% chance. Add in an entropic shield (20% miss chance), and it drops to
44.2%.

And all this without investing in magical items.

One thing to remember, is that duelling favours the wizard: High dex means he is likely to go first. The wizards speciality is limited use high power artillery and special effects. A truer measure, would pit your contestants through 4 encounters against different characters in the same day, (i.e. without opportunity for rememorization), but with access to healing magic. A question also exists about what kind of prep time you allow.

I can guarantee, at the end of the day, the wizard will be weeping and pouting. If he wins 2 of 4, he'll have done well.