not-so-newguy
I'm the Straw Man in your argument
I miss having a morale rating in the monster stat block. It was a quick way to get a sense of how brave/foolish a monster is.
D&D 5E Handling Morale Checks
- Thread starter jayoungr
- Start date
I think the reason we look to Wisdom is because it's long been the "willpower" stat- but you're right, other stats could qualify as well depending.
ezo
Hero
I always kept at Wisdom in 5E more due to the "understanding the danger" or "insight into my foe and their resolve" type stuff.
If you look at it from the "confidence" or "conviction" route, then yeah CHA is better.
KYRON45
Hero
I role play the situation. Taking into account the context of the scenario and the personalities involved. We then....you know.....role play. We each take on the roles were playing and then conversate as those personalities. This is the essence of what the game is.
Now someone is going to tell me that it's a game and there are rules. This is correct. In which case if you don't want to engage in the role playing part (or if the opposition is a monster) of RPG you assign a target number and then pick an ability score to role against. Which ability score do you use? The one with the best modifiers of course.
This is why D&D is TERRIBLE at social interaction. But in my (i'm an old man) years of playing RPGs i have learned that the game part is easy (assign a target and roll high); it's the ROLE part that is fun.
Now someone is going to tell me that it's a game and there are rules. This is correct. In which case if you don't want to engage in the role playing part (or if the opposition is a monster) of RPG you assign a target number and then pick an ability score to role against. Which ability score do you use? The one with the best modifiers of course.
This is why D&D is TERRIBLE at social interaction. But in my (i'm an old man) years of playing RPGs i have learned that the game part is easy (assign a target and roll high); it's the ROLE part that is fun.
I get what you're saying, but I don't want to take the time to come up with individual personalities for each of the five gnoll bandits attacking the party. I'm happy to let the dice decide whether they're all brave and stupid or whether some of them have a sense of self-preservation.
I personally enjoy using freeform roleplay in D&D. I just don't want to use it for morale. Especially when it can come off as me, the GM, being arbitrarily lenient or harsh on the party depending on whether I make them fight until every last bandit is slain/subdued or whether the bandits run away.
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Rune
Once A Fool
I think, were I looking to implement a house-ruled morale system, I’d want something simple that encourages proactive attempts to break morale and can also negatively affect PCs without removing their agency.
• During the course of combat, combatants will gain panic tokens (d6s) as they experience setbacks, defeats, and harm. These are gained immediately as their triggers occur and are cumulative.
• For NPCs, the DM will determine whether the combatant is Cowardly, Brave, or neither (if in doubt, neither). This can be done at the start of combat, or at the start of their first turns, as preferred. A Cowardly combatant increases its accumulated panic tokens by 1 at the start of each if its turns. A Brave combatant reduces its accumulated panic tokens by 1 at the start of each of its turns.
• At the start of each combatant’s turn, it rolls a number of d6s equal to its number of panic tokens. If at least 2 ones are rolled, the combatant will become Frightened of all enemy combatants if it is not already. Once Frightened, an NPC combatant will act as appropriate per DM discretion (ie, Cowardly combatants may flee immediately). Any traits, features, or spells that have additional effects for Frightened creatures apply. If the NPC is already Frightened of all enemy combatants, a roll of panic token dice with at least 2 ones causes the NPC to flee if possible. A Brave NPC may make a Wisdom Save (DC = 5 + 5 per number of ones rolled on the panic token dice) to resist and immediately rally (as described below).
• If no ones are rolled on the panic token dice at the start of a combatant’s turn, its accumulated panic tokens are reduced by 1 and, if Frightened (through morale attrition), it is considered to have rallied and loses the condition. If the combatant is Frightened through some other effect, they can only lose that condition through whatever means are described in that effect.
• At the end of a combatant’s turn, it again rolls a number of d6s equal to its number of panic tokens. The combatant may make a Wisdom Save (DC = the total number rolled on the panic token dice), reducing its accumulated panic tokens by 1 on a success.
Ways to gain panic tokens:
• Intimidation through the Influence action.
• The enemy achieves a specific objecive or denies such to the combatant’s side.
• First harm done to the combatant.
• The combatant is reduced to some pre-determined fraction or fewer of its maximum HP (possibly just the first time).
• An ally that is not significantly less powerful than the combatant is dropped to 0 HP (this should incidentally discourage whack-a-mole healing). If the ally is a/the leader, gain an additional panic token.
• An ally flees. If the ally is a/the leader and/or is Brave, gain an additional panic token.
• For NPCs, the DM will determine whether the combatant is Cowardly, Brave, or neither (if in doubt, neither). This can be done at the start of combat, or at the start of their first turns, as preferred. A Cowardly combatant increases its accumulated panic tokens by 1 at the start of each if its turns. A Brave combatant reduces its accumulated panic tokens by 1 at the start of each of its turns.
• At the start of each combatant’s turn, it rolls a number of d6s equal to its number of panic tokens. If at least 2 ones are rolled, the combatant will become Frightened of all enemy combatants if it is not already. Once Frightened, an NPC combatant will act as appropriate per DM discretion (ie, Cowardly combatants may flee immediately). Any traits, features, or spells that have additional effects for Frightened creatures apply. If the NPC is already Frightened of all enemy combatants, a roll of panic token dice with at least 2 ones causes the NPC to flee if possible. A Brave NPC may make a Wisdom Save (DC = 5 + 5 per number of ones rolled on the panic token dice) to resist and immediately rally (as described below).
• If no ones are rolled on the panic token dice at the start of a combatant’s turn, its accumulated panic tokens are reduced by 1 and, if Frightened (through morale attrition), it is considered to have rallied and loses the condition. If the combatant is Frightened through some other effect, they can only lose that condition through whatever means are described in that effect.
• At the end of a combatant’s turn, it again rolls a number of d6s equal to its number of panic tokens. The combatant may make a Wisdom Save (DC = the total number rolled on the panic token dice), reducing its accumulated panic tokens by 1 on a success.
Ways to gain panic tokens:
• Intimidation through the Influence action.
• The enemy achieves a specific objecive or denies such to the combatant’s side.
• First harm done to the combatant.
• The combatant is reduced to some pre-determined fraction or fewer of its maximum HP (possibly just the first time).
• An ally that is not significantly less powerful than the combatant is dropped to 0 HP (this should incidentally discourage whack-a-mole healing). If the ally is a/the leader, gain an additional panic token.
• An ally flees. If the ally is a/the leader and/or is Brave, gain an additional panic token.
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KYRON45
Hero
I mostly agree with you in both instances.
DMing is hard. Choices must be made.
So, let me get this straight the rule presented in the DMG is...
If the monster is losing the battle and it FAILS the wisdom check it runs away.
So the wiser the monster is the more likely it is to stay and fight a losing battle?
That makes no sense...
Honestly, this is one of those things that the DM just decides on what makes sense.
Only things that should fight to the death are when there is no other option, the monster believes that if they surrender they will be killed anyway, the monster is in some sort of rage state of mind, or the monster is a fanatic (like a cult) for it's cause.
If the monster is losing the battle and it FAILS the wisdom check it runs away.
So the wiser the monster is the more likely it is to stay and fight a losing battle?
That makes no sense...
Honestly, this is one of those things that the DM just decides on what makes sense.
Only things that should fight to the death are when there is no other option, the monster believes that if they surrender they will be killed anyway, the monster is in some sort of rage state of mind, or the monster is a fanatic (like a cult) for it's cause.
jasper
Rotten DM
Just do it by Cr. Cr = bonus on Morale check. and brain is fried so i will have to come back later.
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