D&D 5E Hang Time - What if you jump farther than your speed?

[jgsugden]

I find your way to be significantly more nonsensical, as allowing the PC to make a full jump after expending all movement creates an exception in the movement rules that can be horribly exploited. ("Hey, I was able to jump 30 feet after moving to clear that chasm. Why can't I do it here to get in my attacks on the big bad?")

You misunderstand my way. I'm not saying that a PC with 20 Strength and Move 30 would be able to DASH, move 50', then jump for 20' more in the same round. I would instead have that PC move 50' on the ground, begin to leap, move 10' more... and be in the air at the end of his round. Any attempts at abuses from this approach are fairly easily countered.

Besides, I don't find it that nonsensical that a character who starts 20 feet closer to a chasm will take less time to clear that chasm than one who starts farther away. YMMV, I guess.

Nobody says it would take less time. It is the decision that the PC's that movement would happen to end over the chasm is deprived of distance they could normally cover by the artificial constraint of the round end. D&D is not a perfect real world simulation. We have to accept SOME limitations (such as having creatures move sequentially in 6 second bursts rather than simultaneously en masse), but we do not need to fall prey to all of the arbitrary ramifications.

Why are you applying the rigid combat framework to a chase scene?

Well, I'm evil to the core and it is step 1 in my 3 step plan to make profit.

Oh, and because chases often occur during combat when the enemy decides to flee, rather than die, but the PCs can't afford to let them go. This happens in a significant number of fights.

To me, the goal of the rules in an RPG is to not feel them, but have them work to move the story forward and control random chance w introduce into the story. In a perfect rule set, you'll feel like the rules and simply and efficiently resolve anything a character decides to do within the story. Telling a PC his jump is limited to 5' because he only has 5' of movement left in the round is a huge violation of the goal.

 

[Pauper]

You misunderstand my way. I'm not saying that a PC with 20 Strength and Move 30 would be able to DASH, move 50', then jump for 20' more in the same round. I would instead have that PC move 50' on the ground, begin to leap, move 10' more... and be in the air at the end of his round. Any attempts at abuses from this approach are fairly easily countered.

Fair enough. I've actually ruled this way myself, so I can't say this is an unintuitive ruling. I don't rule this way anymore, though, for reasons that have been largely, but not entirely, covered elsewhere in this thread.

For example, do you also account for changes in momentum based on the jumping character being in the air during enemy turns and possibly being attacked by anything from arrows to thrown boulders?

This is why I find the assertion that limiting characters to a jump equal to their remaining move to be "nonsensical" to be a bit much. Particularly when the rules are explicit that jumping uses a character's normal movement allowance. There are a lot fewer weird 'corner cases' that way, IMNSHO.

--
Pauper

 

[jgsugden]

...For example, do you also account for changes in momentum based on the jumping character being in the air during enemy turns and possibly being attacked by anything from arrows to thrown boulders?

That depends. I look at the story unfolding and either determine what makes sense. In general, I attempt to make no PC more or less vulnerable in these situations than other PCs that have made the movement entirely during their turn. It is generally easy to make rulings that accommodate.

However, as some PCs in a fairly recent game will tell you, when they were hit by boulders while attempting to leap a chasm, there were impacts on their ... well, on their everything.

This is why I find the assertion that limiting characters to a jump equal to their remaining move to be "nonsensical" to be a bit much. Particularly when the rules are explicit that jumping uses a character's normal movement allowance. There are a lot fewer weird 'corner cases' that way, IMNSHO.

Now now, I am sure your opinion is -H-onorable. Or did you mean -H-onest? -H-onky Tonk?

I am always trying to picture the story unfolding like it would in film. Whenever the rules result in something that does not make sense, and it hurts the PCs or the story, I adjust. This goes for nonsensicalities created by sequential movement, spell ramifications that are not specified in the spell text (fireball does not create light?), arbitrary limitations on jump from round structure, etc...

When I play Gloomhaven I have no concerns about this type of thing. That is a board game. If something nonsensical happens there due to the rules, that is because the rules come first. In an RPG, the rules are only tools - and sometimes you can find a better tool for the job than the rules. That is the core of Rule 0.

 

[Hriston]

You recognize that this results in nonsensical situations, right? A PC in a chase being limited to either waiting a round or only being able to jump 5' (which is not enough to clear a crevice) while his ally that is weaker but happened to start 20 feet closer to the gap can cover the entire 20 feet.

Allowing an administrative constraint to limit the otherwise sensible actions of a PC reduces the RPG to board game.

The PC doesn't have to wait for a round before it jumps, the player does. The combat round only pertains to the players at the table. The PC isn't aware it's happening.

To me, the abstraction that makes a jump a discrete event that's resolved in the same turn is well worth maintaining the simultaneity of action in the round. No one for a second believes the PC is hanging in the air while every other participant takes their complete turn, so why create that impression?

 

[jgsugden]

The PC doesn't have to wait for a round before it jumps, the player does. The combat round only pertains to the players at the table. The PC isn't aware it's happening.

Which is WHY we should not limit the PCs actions by the artificial constraint of the round. The PC is unaware of it, so should not be constrained by it. Think through the story without the artificial constraints of the game and adjust accordingly.

Example: PC A and B are - mid-combat - chasing a fleeing enemy. The enemy leaps across a slightly less than 20' wide chasm. A and B each move 30' on a normal move, and have a 20 strength - enough to clear the chasm on a running start under the basic rules. A is 20 feet from the chasm at the start of his turn, B is 50. A can DASH, leap over the chasm and move 60' closer to the enemy by the end of his round. B, under your view of the rules, would fall into the chasm if he tried to leap (because he can only leap 10' due to the artificial constraint of the round and his distance from the chasm), so he has to stop. So he falls 10' further behind - at best - for no real good story reason. Slowing him down might also allow enemies to catch up to him, etc...

To me, the abstraction that makes a jump a discrete event that's resolved in the same turn is well worth maintaining the simultaneity of action in the round. No one for a second believes the PC is hanging in the air while every other participant takes their complete turn, so why create that impression?

You don't really need to do so - you can work around it easily. If you don't think the story would call for the hero to be in the sky for a prolonged period - fine. Treat the PC for purposes of the attacks as if he was on one side of the pit or the other while allowing the figure to make the progress he would have made.

However, for many of these situations we're talking about magical jumps that have the PC in the air for 6 to 12 seconds and only moving at a pace about equal to about a 10 minute mile - a light run speed. 5 to 7 MPH. That may not be "hanging in the air" but a predictable flight path for 6+ seconds at that speed? Not hard to lead and hit. So, maybe you don't want to work around it, and you do want to treat them like they're hanging in the air.

Once again, the story should dictate. Think through what is taking place in the story and use the rules where it makes sense and tweak them where the rules fail us.

 

[Hriston]

Which is WHY we should not limit the PCs actions by the artificial constraint of the round. The PC is unaware of it, so should not be constrained by it. Think through the story without the artificial constraints of the game and adjust accordingly.

This makes no sense to me. The whole point of the combat round is to limit how much stuff you can do with your PC. You want to do more stuff than fits into this round? It’ll have to wait until next round to be resolved.

Example: PC A and B are - mid-combat - chasing a fleeing enemy. The enemy leaps across a slightly less than 20' wide chasm. A and B each move 30' on a normal move, and have a 20 strength - enough to clear the chasm on a running start under the basic rules. A is 20 feet from the chasm at the start of his turn, B is 50. A can DASH, leap over the chasm and move 60' closer to the enemy by the end of his round. B, under your view of the rules, would fall into the chasm if he tried to leap (because he can only leap 10' due to the artificial constraint of the round and his distance from the chasm), so he has to stop. So he falls 10' further behind - at best - for no real good story reason. Slowing him down might also allow enemies to catch up to him, etc...

No, you’ve got my “view of the rules” wrong. B doesn’t fall if he tries to jump. That’s not what happens. What happens is the DM tells B’s player that B doesn’t have enough movement left to clear the chasm and is there anything else B would like to do with B’s remaining 10 feet of movement. Also, B doesn’t stop if B’s player decides not to use the remaining 10 feet. B’s turn ends, and B’s jump will commence and be resolved at the beginning of B’s next turn, following directly upon the run up B took at the end of B’s last turn.

You don't really need to do so - you can work around it easily. If you don't think the story would call for the hero to be in the sky for a prolonged period - fine. Treat the PC for purposes of the attacks as if he was on one side of the pit or the other while allowing the figure to make the progress he would have made.

That sounds needlessly complicated. The 20 foot jump referenced above would take less than 1 second at normal jump speed, which isn’t anywhere near a prolonged period in which enemies can take potshots at the jumper while suspended in air. The simplest approach is to resolve the jump when there’s enough movement to complete it.

However, for many of these situations we're talking about magical jumps that have the PC in the air for 6 to 12 seconds and only moving at a pace about equal to about a 10 minute mile - a light run speed. 5 to 7 MPH. That may not be "hanging in the air" but a predictable flight path for 6+ seconds at that speed? Not hard to lead and hit. So, maybe you don't want to work around it, and you do want to treat them like they're hanging in the air.

Once again, the story should dictate. Think through what is taking place in the story and use the rules where it makes sense and tweak them where the rules fail us.

That isn’t how I imagine magical jumps working at all though. The 60 foot jump made possible by the jump spell combined with a 20 STR, for example, I imagine takes no more than 2 seconds to complete and is fully resolved in a single turn.

 

[jgsugden]

This makes no sense to me. The whole point of the combat round is to limit how much stuff you can do with your PC. You want to do more stuff than fits into this round? It’ll have to wait until next round to be resolved.

So the administrative concept of a round limits the story. That is what people are saying is a bad result. How would you like it if a movie character stopped for no story based reason in the middle of a chase?

No, you’ve got my “view of the rules” wrong. B doesn’t fall if he tries to jump. That’s not what happens. What happens is the DM tells B’s player that B doesn’t have enough movement left to clear the chasm and is there anything else B would like to do with B’s remaining 10 feet of movement. Also, B doesn’t stop if B’s player decides not to use the remaining 10 feet. B’s turn ends, and B’s jump will commence and be resolved at the beginning of B’s next turn, following directly upon the run up B took at the end of B’s last turn.

...which puts him arbitrarily 10 feet back of where he would be had the administrative concept of a round not limited his movement.

That sounds needlessly complicated. The 20 foot jump referenced above would take less than 1 second at normal jump speed, which isn’t anywhere near a prolonged period in which enemies can take potshots at the jumper while suspended in air. The simplest approach is to resolve the jump when there’s enough movement to complete it.

It is no hard at all. I've been using it for a long time. Your approach is simpler, but constrains the story under administrative abstract non-story limitations.

That isn’t how I imagine magical jumps working at all though. The 60 foot jump made possible by the jump spell combined with a 20 STR, for example, I imagine takes no more than 2 seconds to complete and is fully resolved in a single turn.

Great. Then why can't he move further in the round? He still has 2/3 of the round left. If the mechanics don't fit, you must acquit.

Run it how you want - each DM can decide what makes sense to them. Story first DMs will do something like what I do, but DMs that favor maximum simplicity and do not see a problem with arbitrary administrative features constraining the story will do something more like you.

 

[FarBeyondC]

Why are you assuming chases can't occur during combat?

I'm not. In fact, I've played (and run) chase sequences during combat quite often.

Well, I'm evil to the core and it is step 1 in my 3 step plan to make profit.

Oh, and because chases often occur during combat when the enemy decides to flee, rather than die, but the PCs can't afford to let them go. This happens in a significant number of fights.

Where I'm from, this usually ends up being resolved within the next round via focused fire on the escaping enemy, so chases during combat generally don't last long enough to run into any odd rule interaction problems.

Anywhere that this doesn't happen? All participants in the chase stop operating under the chase rules and start operating under a more narrative oriented skill challenge type framework.

 

[Oofta]

To me it comes down to what's more fun and engaging. Strictly adhering to the rules and limiting jump distance to movement doesn't make the cut. We have scenes in the movies all the time where the hero is jumping and then we have a cut in the scene to go to what someone else is doing.

As far as "how does someone hang in the air for 6 seconds" argument, that's simple. They don't. Battle is happening simultaneously. I don't get too concerned about the actual duration of a turn in seconds, but everyone is acting in those same 6 seconds. So while someone is leaping, someone else is already moving in response to their movement. If you wanted to be better at simulating this, you'd have to have incredibly small slices of time during your turn. Limit movement to 5 feet, start an attack (or attacks) by targeting an opponent and then completing the attack on subsequent rounds, etc. The game would grind to a halt.

Let's take a scenario. The BBEG is confronting the party from across a 20 ft chasm, holding the McGuffin. The party is 50 feet away from the chasm and facing BBEG's minions. The BBEG has a mini-dialog/gloat scene and leaves around the corner, telling his goons to attack. The barbarian decides to give chase - bravely risking opportunity attacks he charges with a battle cry at BBEG who just went around the corner.

Setup:
Bob: "With a howling battle cry, Brog recklessly charges past his enemies in pursuit of The Black Mask!"
DM: "Two opportunity attacks" ... roll die ... "surprised by your sudden burst of speed, they both miss!"
Bob: "Awesome! I full out run [dash] and leap across the chasm in pursuit"

Scenario 1:
DM: "You get to the edge of the chasm but hesitate, you cannot make the jump this turn"
Bob: "Huh? I'm running full speed, it's 20 ft chasm, I have a 20 strength. I mean I might have to make an athletics to catch the edge, but we know Maskie is a dwarf, I should be able to catch up to him".
DM: "Nope. Your jump ends on your movement which would leave you suspended over the pit. In fact, you have to stop 10 ft before the chasm because you'll want a running start."
Bob: "Fine. I'll attack and move after my turn I suppose. That's not what I want to do and it makes no sense but rules are rules"
DM: "Yep. It's all about the rules, not about the narrative. A couple of goons see what you're doing and move to block your path."
Bob: <facepalm>

This feels like I'm just using the rules to make sure the BBEG gets away.

Scenario 2:
DM: "Awesome. Because you can't complete the jump this turn, your enemy may have a chance to fire at you while your in the middle of your jump."
Bob: "No problem. Getting Maskey is the only thing Brog is thinking about right now"
DM: "OK, as you run past 2 of the goons in the back swing their bows in your direction tracking your movement. As you leap across the chasm they let loose with arrows..."

To me, this is a lot more engaging narrative without breaking anything. D&D can't implement a system that allows for truly simultaneous combat. That doesn't mean we have to be slaves to turns.

 

[Pauper]

Also, B doesn’t stop if B’s player decides not to use the remaining 10 feet. B’s turn ends, and B’s jump will commence and be resolved at the beginning of B’s next turn, following directly upon the run up B took at the end of B’s last turn.

This is a great point.

The rules do say that you can "cover a number of feet up to your Strength score if you move at least 10 feet on foot immediately before the jump." (BR, p.64, emphasis mine) Otherwise, you're presumed to be making a standing long jump and can only get half that distance.

However, there is nothing explicit in the jump rule that says the 10 foot run has to be in the same round as the jump, only that the 10 foot run has to "immediately" precede the jump. So if a character ends one turn by moving at least 10 feet, it's reasonable to argue that this counts for the "immediate" 10 foot run needed to do a running long jump to start the next turn, since (as you note elsewhere) the characters don't perceive the turn order as 'I do this then wait six seconds before I do that'. Even better, this leaves the character with a full movement allowance to get maximum distance on the jump.

A DM could rule that "immediately before" means "in the same round as" -- I know I've done that without realizing it in the past -- but it's not strictly required by the rule we're discussing here.

Good catch.

--
Pauper