Harassment in gaming

[Dannyalcatraz]

The adage, "Many hands make light work." applies here.

By couching the discussion in general, social terms, the problematic behavior of individuals within the group becomes a community enforcement issue. As in, you may not be part of the problem, but you're being asked to consider what you can do to be part of the solution.

Part of the problem with sexual assaults in ANY community is the issue of proof. That's one of the root reasons why law enforcement officers of all kinds tell women* to be careful at "Greek"/Frat events...and apparently, at gaming and Cosplay cons as well. Unless there are objective witnesses- other attendees, security cam footage, or even something someone caught on their smartphone- it is damned difficult to bring any offender to justice. And frat brothers and geeks seem to share a common code of silence regarding this behavior.

In that link that started this thread, it was mentioned that some guy always got gropey after a few drinks. This was well known...except to his victims. What if a just a fraction of those around that person had spoken to authorities? Or in public?

I'm thinking he has fewer victims, and possibly gets the punishment- and help- he needs.

Ditto most of the public fondling issues she recounted. What are the odds that NOBODY witnessed ANY of the occurrences...or heard an offender talk about it later?

So peacekeepers- even those not inclined to dismiss such claims out of hand- are in a bind. False reports DO happen, but we also know that sexual assaults are under-reported. Weighing a claim of assault vs a wall of silence from potential witnesses- and the risk of lawsuits if the claim is actually false- contributes to extreme reluctance.

The solution is simple- see it, hear it, report it. But it is a lot easier said than done.








* and minorities

 

[Ancalagon]

Someone posted this link on a facebook discussion about this, it might be a worthwhile resource?

http://www.gamermessage.com/what-is-this/

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

In that link that started this thread, it was mentioned that some guy always got gropey after a few drinks. This was well known...except to his victims. What if a just a fraction of those around that person had spoken to authorities? Or in public?

Expanding on this incident: who the hell at these events keeps giving him booze if it is a known trigger/excuse for his molestations? That kind of thing gets out, they could be held civilly and possibly criminally responsible.

(And should be.)

 

[Ovinomancer]

So this person, who is fed up and mad as hell at all this harassment non-sense, must first adjust her messaging so not to offend your sensibilities. Until this is done, you are unwilling to address or even discuss the problem. Proper messaging is a bigger priority than respecting women.

I know that's not what you wanted to say... but that's effectively what you are saying. Umbran addressed this issue already. Can we move on and actually talk about the issue?

No, of course she has the right to rage. I, however, reject the argument that because she has a legit complaint under the broad brush (and she does) that others must ignore the sexism, racism, and stereotyping inherent in her statements and that they should be shamed into shutting up because you think her experience more than justifies the attacks.

I think what she describes is horrible, and I stand up to it every time I see it. I've started gaming in a FLGS lately after decades of nothing but home games, and I've had to stand up once or twice due to crappy behavior by others. She has a very real point that the hobby in general has a problem of an overabundance of crappy people and a serious overabundance of people that won't challenge the crap before it's too late. Those are things that are worth talking about and I'm glad she's making such a stink over them. But her choice of words are offensive to others, and the very thing we need to stand up about within the hobby. Don't shame others into silence because they're doing what we want everyone in the hobby to do -- stand up for the dignity of all members. That includes the white males who aren't crappy people.

We should be dealing with individuals, not groups, on both sides.

Actually, if there is widespread harassment, and the perpetrators are overwhelmingly white and male, then perhaps they have a point. You know about "the tone argument" yes? It is a logical fallacy - that an argument can be dismissed based on its presentation, rather than its content.

Yes, I'm familiar with how you misuse the 'tone argument'. That hasn't worked for you, yet, why do you keep doing it? I'm not dismissing her arguments over the tone she used. She's angry, and deserves to be angry, and she has some great points. My argument isn't even directed at her article, but at the argument made in this thread that saying 'not all men' is just distracting from the real important points. It's not, it's only distracting if you think saying 'I'm not cool with your stereotyping' isn't cool. If you're going to try to make my argument into a tone argument, which it's not, then you need to take a long hard look at your own statements about 'not all men,' because that would qualify as well.

Dismissing them for hyperbole does nothing to resolve the real issues that are present. If you look past the overstatement, and address the real issues, then the need to overstate the case will disappear. Prove to them that you're listening, and they won't have to scream to be heard. Stick your fingers in your ears and sing, "LALALA! I'm not listening!" will tend to make them yell louder. You are, in essence, exerting your power over them, by insisting that you will not pay attention until *your* sensibilities are not met.

Good thing that's not what I did. And there's never a point at which a cause is noble and just enough to make a sexist and racist statement disappear. I can criticize my side for crappy behavior even as I stand with them to challenge even crappier behavior. There is no requirement that my side be immune from all criticism or improvement.

I believe her experience because I've seen similar things happen. I stand up, and I hope everyone here does as well. Have I ignoring things I shouldn't on occasion? Yes, shamefully, but we all are flawed and all sometimes don't think that something that's truly bothersome was more than a joke in bad taste or an accidentally bad choice of phrase. But I get there, and in bad cases, I get there quickly. I burned a friendship down in college because my ex-friend got comfortable enough with me to start in with some vile racist about a classmate -- and one I didn't particularly like (personality conflicts). I ended that friendship on the spot. So, yeah, I bat for the right team on this. I'm against racism in all of its forms, and that means that I'm not going to quietly tolerate it because the speaker is nominally on my side of the issue.

Yes, it is. However, if you are a member of a group that doesn't have to take all that much crap, then maybe it makes more sense to take some crap and get to the point, rather than get into a crap-shoveling contest.

Ah, that lovely idea, privilege. The norm we should be working towards is that no one suffers racism, and that shouldn't include the idea that those that currently don't are privileged to not. Yes, my daily life is free from racism, but I don't feel bad for that, I just work to make sure that my daily life doesn't cause more racism and that I correct what I can when I see it.

Chicken meet egg. How do you make it so that it gets addressed on the individual level, unless you raise the issue more broadly?

There's no need to raise the issue with a sexist and racist statement. The issue can be raised broadly without that, and if you honestly think it can't, or if you honestly think that I don't think that this is an issue that should be broadly raised, then I don't really have any reality based reasons to discuss it further with you.

This is another answer to the "not all men" argument: Maybe not all men, but yes *all women*. This is not obvious to men, unless women tell them. Men must be told en masse. That's what this piece is about - another effort to inform the broad audience that the problem still exists, and men should step up to help fix it.

I agree with the statement that men should step up. I disagree that there's a need to label all white men as terrorist because there's some crappy behavior. Again, I don't have to accept sexism and racism in any of it's forms to combat sexism and racism. Further, I don't have to refrain from criticism of people nominally on the same side of the fight as me. Asking that we don't engage in the same, if lesser, forms of behavior we're fighting against doesn't weaken the fight or distract from it. We should be striving to be better at this across the board, and not be accepting of lesser forms of it because it's combating a greater injustice.

 

[Umbran]

Ditto most of the public fondling issues she recounted. What are the odds that NOBODY witnessed ANY of the occurrences...or heard an offender talk about it later?

It gets very, very difficult. For example, a lady of my acquaintance was groped at a convention in Boston recently. She'd gone to the club dance in the evening, and started chatting with a guy. It seemed reasonable enough to speak with him, as he was on Security staff. She was dressed in, "going out dancing," attire and the guy makes a comment of how she looks like she's Dominant. She uncomfortably replied, "Um, no..." and the next thing she knows her wrists are pinned to the wall and she's getting felt up, with him saying, "Well, then you must be a Sub...." No active consent on her part.

This was in the middle of the hall, in view of *DOZENS* of people. And not a one of them said boo. Onlookers assumed that is she wasn't screaming and slapping him that anything happening was consensual, and at 2 AM all the kids had gone to bed, so the ideas of acceptable public touching were a little relaxed. And, social pressure being what it is, she didn't make a big public fuss.

She spoke to me about it afterwards. The convention has a mechanism for people to report incidents, even if they weren't the victim. So, I reported it for her. It turns out that he had several complaints against him that weekend, and while no legal action was taken, he's been permanently banned from the convention.

 

[cmad1977]

Stunning. Socially inept white guys act like arsehats and feel threatened by an influx of 'the other'.
I'm shocked. Shocked, that there is gambling in this establishment.

 

[Umbran]

Stunning. Socially inept white guys act like arsehats and feel threatened by an influx of 'the other'.

In the case I mentioned just above (which, admittedly, isn't gaming-specific) the man was African-American.

My understanding is that sexism is a male-thing, not a white-male-thing.

 

[Ovinomancer]

In the case I mentioned just above (which, admittedly, isn't gaming-specific) the man was African-American.

My understanding is that sexism is a male-thing, not a white-male-thing.

While I'll agree that in most of the world it is a predominantly male thing, rad-fem ideology shows that's it's not an only male thing. Still, in the vast majority of cases, it's male-initiated.

 

[cmad1977]

In the case I mentioned just above (which, admittedly, isn't gaming-specific) the man was African-American.

My understanding is that sexism is a male-thing, not a white-male-thing.

Allow me to amend then: stunning, nerdy socially inept males act like asshats. Statistically, in the gaming community, these males tend to be white, though there are exceptions.

 

[cmad1977]

As a 'white male terrorist' I think she's spot on, and I don't feel particularly upset about her tone or choice of words. But then I'm not as dainty as some of the other white males in this thread.