Harassment in gaming

[Hussar]

/snip

If the thing they're offended by isn't actually something against the convention's standards of behaviour, you've just avoided having to accuse an innocent person of doing something wrong. And if the report is something serious, you now know what level of sanction is appropriate. Hopefully, convention staff would treat a rape or death threat more seriously than someone complaining about a person making a joke about menstruation.

It happens. One article that cites examples: https://postmortemstudios.wordpress...-the-nicest-white-terrorists-youll-ever-meet/

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Do you really think that if someone was threatened with rape, their complaint would be a simple "I feel harassed"? Would the person making the complaint likely not mention the rape threat? How likely is it that two people, making a harassment complaint, one where they overheard the word menstrual and the other after receiving a rape threat would make the same complaint?

OTOH, if someone comes to you and says, "Hey, those guys at the table are being really offensive, can you make them stop?" do you really need to find out more information? Do you really need to know what they said? And, if you do, why?

 

[Springheel]

Do you really think that if someone was threatened with rape, their complaint would be a simple "I feel harassed"? Would the person making the complaint likely not mention the rape threat?

I don't presume I can predict exactly how someone might react in that situation. Can you?

OTOH, if someone comes to you and says, "Hey, those guys at the table are being really offensive, can you make them stop?" do you really need to find out more information? Do you really need to know what they said? And, if you do, why?

If I'm someone who is expected to enforce the rules of the convention, then yes, of course I need to find out more information, for exactly the reasons that have already been discussed ad nauseum.

If you don't understand or don't care that there are people who will report completely harmless comments as "offensive", then I don't know what else to say.

 

[Umbran]

Do you really think that if someone was threatened with rape, their complaint would be a simple "I feel harassed"? Would the person making the complaint likely not mention the rape threat?

Okay, here's a terribly important point, given to me in harassment and rape crisis training to work con security: DO NOT expect the victim to behave in what *you* think is a rational manner. The victim of rape, assault, or even harassment has *a lot of crap* going on in their heads. Their judgement may well be compromised. Their memory of events may not be what you think it should be.

This is a major issue of how even police react to reports of rape. Officers (even trained ones) frequently discount reports because the report doesn't follow their personal expectations.

 

[Hussar]

I don't presume I can predict exactly how someone might react in that situation. Can you?

Exactly? No, that's true, I can't. But, I can predict with a pretty darn high degree of certainty that someone who is bringing a harassment complaint to me is most likely doing so because they are upset about something that was said or done. And, I'm pretty darn sure that someone who has received a rape threat is going to react differently than someone who overheard the word "menstrual". Granted, not 100%. But, I'm pretty willing to trust my gut on this one.

If I'm someone who is expected to enforce the rules of the convention, then yes, of course I need to find out more information, for exactly the reasons that have already been discussed ad nauseum.

If you don't understand or don't care that there are people who will report completely harmless comments as "offensive", then I don't know what else to say.

What reasons? So you can judge if the person was "really" harassed? That the comment(s) pass some sort of "harassment meter" level where action should be taken?

No. As someone who is expected to enforce the rules of the convention, you have one job and one job only. To ensure that whatever is happening doesn't happen again. Full stop. It isn't your job to determine "guilt" or anything else. Your job is to make sure that things go as smoothly as possible. Which means, yup, there is a chance you might mistakenly accuse someone of harassment that wasn't doing anything. Fair enough. But, again, all you are going to do is tell that person to stop doing whatever it is that they were doing. "Hey guys, we received a complaint about this table. Please remember you are in a public space and you have to watch what you are saying. Keep it grandma friendly please."

How is that a problem? Even if the guys weren't actually saying anything offensive, at worst, they are a bit embarrassed and possibly a bit confused. They'll get over it. They'll get over it a heck of a lot faster than someone who actually was harassed and you then spent time questioning them about the experience, forcing them to explain why they are offended and why you should do something about it. Particularly if you decide to not bother doing anything at all because whatever their complaint was, you felt it didn't warrant further action.

 

[random.brown]

Whoops, double post!

Hope that didn't trigger anyone or anything...

 

[random.brown]

They'll get over it.

So will your hypothetical delicate flower who heard some mean things from some big meanie a few tables over and whined like child to the first authority figure he or she could find.

Find a new hobby if this one is so full of offense.

as always,

I DON'T CARE.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Thank you for identifying yourself.

 

[billd91]

So will your hypothetical delicate flower who heard some mean things from some big meanie a few tables over and whined like child to the first authority figure he or she could find.

Find a new hobby if this one is so full of offense.

as always,

I DON'T CARE.

Feel free to not participate in the thread.

 

[Sadras]

I was in extreme distress because PC rape was suddenly thrust upon me (I would NOT have joined the group if I had forewarning that rape was allowed content in their games), and the DM not only expected but pushed me to actually RP the rape scene, describing in graphic detail what was happening to my character as I sat in stunned and horrified silence, and as the other players just watched the scene unfold before them. I can honestly say that it was the most terrifying, humiliating, and degrading experience in my entire life, and I wouldn't put good-natured ribbing or a critique of how I roleplay a character anywhere near that experience on a scale of discomfort or distress.

That is INSANE! Not that this justifies it by any means, but I'm trying to wrap my head around something like this happening, what age was the DM and your co-players and how many years ago was this? Surely these guys have matured since then?
Apologies if this has already been answered earlier. I did try skimming through the thread, page spotting, but I missed this story.
As DMs we worry about how a character death will affect the player. PC Rape, humiliation and such like is pretty out there.

Recently one of the characters was kidnapped and worked over by the bad guys to obtain information about the party. The entire interrogation was off-screen and no details were given. When rescued, only the mechanical effects of the interrogation and some light description was given i.e fatigued, no condition to fight, bloodied and bruised.
When we were younger we might have dealt with this scenario in a little more detail - maturity, enjoyment of all and importance of pacing the story allows us to speed past scenario's like this, where the only thing that was considered was the information obtained. In fact we played out the entire rescue with 25 cards I specifically made, their randomness brought about the story that evolved from the rescue. So the 'bad stuff' was completely glossed over.

No damage was inflicted upon the player psyche or how that character was viewed. Truthfully I cannot take credit that I had all of this in mind when I decided on that course of action with the captured PC. This conversation now with you though, has made me more aware of it, so that is a positive.

 

[Sadras]

I think the dynamic you're discussing here does happen, but I want to point something out....

Again - we describe this as the female being "overly sensitive". She is the one that is not avereage or correct. Why not say that her sensitivities are fine, but the men are coarse, insensitive, thoughtless, negligent, or "naturally" blind to how they are being problematic?

Calling it "naturally so" actually makes it worse - now it is not just a personal foible of the one woman, but it is now "natural" for women to be "overly sensitive". How is that not a sexist stereotype?

I don't think this is a derailing at all, but an excellent example of how unfortunately insidious some of the issues are. It pervades even our wording choice, if we are not actively thinking about them. It is *assumed* in how we construct statements.

I generally agree. And perhaps because I'm drawing on my experiences which can be completely anecdotal, but if I compare my wife, my friend's wives/partners and their friends - they analyse, more so than guys, every word uttered in their presence. They are offended much easier - not necessarily by the guys but by other females more so. This is not a slight against the opposite sex this is just my observation. My experience has shown that men brush off comments much easier than women. Again I mention this is obviously not the case with every woman or man and it is my experience with the women and men I know.

Secondly can you honestly not imagine a single female with a group of five male gamers, how much more sensitive she would be than if she were with a group of 5 females. And again I'm speaking in broad terms. I certainly am a lot more self-aware/sensitive in the reverse scenario. It is a natural human reaction.

So when I made the comment 'naturally so' I was imagining a female gamer at a male dominated table.

You make mention of the words 'average' and 'correct' - what is the average amongst 5 thoughtless men and one female?