Harassment in gaming

[Dannyalcatraz]

One thing I think is important to point out is that- when it comes to bullying and verbal/physical assaults- a lot of victimizers are victims themselves. The acts of aggression towards those they think are weaker is a maladaptive way to regain power they feel they have lost. I wouldn't be surprised to find out most of our fellow gamers who commit these heinous acts were themselves bullied.

Not that that's an excuse, of course, nor is it a reason for those of us who are witnesses to such behavior to tolerate it. Just something to keep in mind: the ones doing the hurting may be wounded themselves. Merely reacting with angry confrontation may not achieve the desired result

 

[Ovinomancer]

By saying "not all men" you're acting defensively, and trying to shift the conversation away from the problem. It doesn't help.

If someone tells you that that guy over there harassed them, and you respond 'not all men harass,' then, yes, you're a douchecopter and are trivializing the issue.

If someone tells you that there's a white male terrorism problem in gaming, though, they've steered away from this issue with a bombastic, racist, sexist statement, and your response of 'not all white men terrorism gaming' is perfectly valid and not steering away from the problem because the problem was misstated. Telling people getting broadbrushed with racist and sexist remarks accusing them of terrorism that they can't defend against themselves because there's some real problem behind the rhetoric is cr*p. First, I'd ask that you discuss the actual problem without the broad brush insults and then I'd be happy to discuss it.

There is a large contingent of socially maladjusted men in gaming that do take out their social inadequacies unfairly on women and minorities. But that's an issue of spotlighting the actual behavior when it happens, not saying that gaming has a white male terrorism problem. This is an issue fixed by addressing individuals, not blacklisting entire demographics.

 

[Ancalagon]

First, I'd ask that you discuss the actual problem without the broad brush insults and then I'd be happy to discuss it.

So this person, who is fed up and mad as hell at all this harassment non-sense, must first adjust her messaging so not to offend your sensibilities. Until this is done, you are unwilling to address or even discuss the problem. Proper messaging is a bigger priority than respecting women.

I know that's not what you wanted to say... but that's effectively what you are saying. Umbran addressed this issue already. Can we move on and actually talk about the issue?

 

[Mallus]

3: Listen to women. If a woman tells you "I feel this art is demeaning" don't argue with her. If you don't get it, ask her why (and TONE of voice is important here people). As a white guy, I don't get to decide if using the N word is offensive, and I don't get to decide if a piece of art is offensive to women. And if a woman tells you she's been harassed or worse, for the love of god do something.

Your first 2 points are hard (and wrong) to argue with, but this one here is, ahem, problematic. You're conflating 3 separate things:

#1 A woman's response to a piece of art.

#2 A Black person's response to a racial epithet associated with centuries of both institutional and casual racism.

#3 A woman reporting sexual harassment and/or assault.

Muddying these things together muddies the point being made. Disagreements over aesthetics are different than one's about the use of racist invective. Besides, a single woman can't decide if a piece of art is demeaning to women. Only herself. Some woman hate pin-up art. Others create it. We need spaces that accommodate both.

 

[Ancalagon]

Mallus, my intention wasn't to conflate them but I can see how it came across that way. Sorry about that :/

What I was trying to emphasize was the importance of listening, and also how we don't get to decide what is offensive to someone else - ie not to negate other people's experiences.

 

[Curmudjinn]

Maybe my experiences in role-playing groups are an anomaly, but in face-to-face games with uncomfortable or harassing, sexual-based issues, about 80% of the time was by a female gamer towards others(males and females both) at the table.
Let me sternly say, I absolutely don't condone this from men or women towards unconsenting parties. I've read a lot about this problem of sexism from male gamers, but aside from online console games, I haven't seen much of it.

It needs to be stamped out immediately by all who witness it. The person being sexually persecuted or advanced upon should never have to deal with this alone in a group of friends or players.

Practice being good human beings.

 

[innerdude]

In response to the OP ---

It sucks. All of it.

It sucks that it happens at all. It sucks that the described responses to and treatment of those that report harassment are unresponsive at best and hostile at worst. It sucks that there is a correlation between those who engage in these kinds of behaviors and geek culture.

I am truly baffled by any male who would presume, under any circumstances, that they are allowed to physically touch someone they've never met, beyond a conventional, Western-society handshake.

I don't know what preventative measures can be taken to prevent these kinds of abuses and intolerable behaviors, but clearly there needs to be some work and research done. An easy one for "geek" conventions --- if there any reports of inappropriate contact regarding a convention-goer, the accused immediately has their credentials / pass canceled and are escorted from the premises. No follow-up needed, no witnesses required other than the word of the person making the accusation.

Is that possibly reactionary? Maybe. Is there potential for abuse for that kind of policy? Yes. There will most certainly be cases where an accused person would be wrongfully removed from a convention. But the staggering reported numbers would seem to justify such a policy. I've never been to a "con" of any kind, so I don't know if these kinds of policies are already in place. I know that the regional ComicCon closest to me, in Salt Lake City, is one of the most well-attended regional events of its kind, but I've never looked into their attendee policies.

For stuff happening at FLGSes? That's obviously business management's issue to deal with on a store-by-store basis, but other in-store participants also need to be willing to stand up and support those who have been treated inappropriately.

I don't know if there's any correlation between fantasy art and this kind of behavior, but I'm always surprised when I do a Google search for "fantasy warrior art" and see how much of that art is overtly sexualized, and in more cases than not the art in question is of women.

I also have to be realistic to know that I may in the past have unknowingly engaged in sexist behavior or had sexist attitudes, and that I should do my utmost to change those when I'm aware of them. In that sense it's good to hear things like this so as to take a step back and really think and evaluate how I can avoid being a problem and contribute to solutions in the future.

 

[Mallus]

Mallus, my intention wasn't to conflate them but I can see how it came across that way. Sorry about that :/

Hey, no need for sorry - I felt a bit like I was nitpicking. But I'm wary of social justice arguments that seem to draw unhelpful equivalencies.

What I was trying to emphasize was the importance of listening, and also how we don't get to decide what is offensive to someone else - ie not to negate other people's experiences.

Yeah, listening is important. But the harder part comes after, when you need to evaluate if their grievance has merit, and, if so, what action can and should be taken. To acknowledge a person's feelings isn't the same thing as agreeing they're right. It's usually so much messier.

The one bright side to all this is there are concrete measures that can be taken. Public gaming spaces like conventions and stores can be made safer and better with strong anti-harassment policies. On the individual level, each one of us can act better in places where we're hosting/running the show, or at least leave games/spaces we're not comfortable.

 

[Elf Witch]

I would like to make a comment on the subject of art in gaming. One of the things that has always bothered me was the pin up art for female PCs. I have nothing against pin up art I always thought Vargas's pin ups were sexy. But there is a time and place for it.

The litmus test for me is this would you dress a male PC in this and would you put them in that pose? If the answer is no then don't do it for a female. I am no talking about fantasy art work in general just gaming there is room in art for sexy beefcake and cheesecake but unless the PC is a succubus/incubus or they ply their trade in seduction why are we dressing female PCs as some kind of sexual fantasy.

And yes I know some women like that and want their female PC to run around in a chainmail bikini and that is fine and they go on the internet and find plenty of artwork to represent their PC. I just think that it is a turn off for a lot of female players and does not belong in artwork in game books.

 

[Umbran]

If someone tells you that there's a white male terrorism problem in gaming, though, they've steered away from this issue with a bombastic, racist, sexist statement, and your response of 'not all white men terrorism gaming' is perfectly valid and not steering away from the problem because the problem was misstated.

Actually, if there is widespread harassment, and the perpetrators are overwhelmingly white and male, then perhaps they have a point. You know about "the tone argument" yes? It is a logical fallacy - that an argument can be dismissed based on its presentation, rather than its content.

That it is stated in a bombastic or hyperbolic manner does not change the actual facts of the situation, which are also presented in the piece. What you are saying amounts to, "I'm sorry that you were given death threats many times over the years by men, but until such time as you can phrase your argument in such a way as I am not personally put out by it, I'm going to dismiss you for misstating your argument."

Dismissing them for hyperbole does nothing to resolve the real issues that are present. If you look past the overstatement, and address the real issues, then the need to overstate the case will disappear. Prove to them that you're listening, and they won't have to scream to be heard. Stick your fingers in your ears and sing, "LALALA! I'm not listening!" will tend to make them yell louder. You are, in essence, exerting your power over them, by insisting that you will not pay attention until *your* sensibilities are not met.

Telling people getting broadbrushed with racist and sexist remarks accusing them of terrorism that they can't defend against themselves because there's some real problem behind the rhetoric is cr*p.

Yes, it is. However, if you are a member of a group that doesn't have to take all that much crap, then maybe it makes more sense to take some crap and get to the point, rather than get into a crap-shoveling contest.

There is a large contingent of socially maladjusted men in gaming that do take out their social inadequacies unfairly on women and minorities. But that's an issue of spotlighting the actual behavior when it happens, not saying that gaming has a white male terrorism problem. This is an issue fixed by addressing individuals, not blacklisting entire demographics.

Chicken meet egg. How do you make it so that it gets addressed on the individual level, unless you raise the issue more broadly?

This is another answer to the "not all men" argument: Maybe not all men, but yes *all women*. This is not obvious to men, unless women tell them. Men must be told en masse. That's what this piece is about - another effort to inform the broad audience that the problem still exists, and men should step up to help fix it.