Harniacs vs. d20/D&D players

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Even with occasional Ivashu (god made monsters) and the side trexs to Evael the ultra low magic and tiny population of Harn make it seem claustraphobic to me.

It just feels like there is nothing to really do on Harn and in a real feudal society, like the one portrayed in Harn things are pretty static.

I just can't come up with interesting action packed things to do there and that is a turn of for my players.

I see your point. I was very excited at first about running Harn, but then couldn't figure out what to do with it. Without gobs of illogical monsters, wizards and gods walking around to beat up on, what is there to do in a fantasy game? I'm not being a jackass, I'm being serious here. I was stumped. Obviously, traditional D&D world-shaking adventures were really out of the question, and I didn't want Harn to be just another FR, GH, etc.

I bought the HarnWorld introductory adventure, 100 Bushels of Rye, and used that as my first Harn foray. It's a really fun murder/mystery with a hint of the supernatural about it that makes a perfect template for constructing your own Harnic adventures. I changed a few elements (like the killer's identity to fit it in with my Cthulhu concept) and ran it over three sessions. The players were terrified and ran away from combat every chance they got! There was a ton of cool NPC interaction in the village for the first two sessions alone (before they got stuck in a cave with the killer, LOL). I guess what I'm saying is that if you get some help (either 100 Bushels or a free online adventure, of which there are dozens available), you can get your Harn game going. There is a ton of free Harn material online that can spur adventuring ideas or fill in the gaps (details for inns, villages, etc.).

This is one of the things I meant in my earlier comment about Harn being "harder to wrap your brain around, especially when coming from a D&D background"--with Harn, you really can't rely on the old standbys of D&D (wandering monsters, magical traps, etc.). You have to figure out what could realistically be encountered. 99.9% of all Harnic combats and struggles should be between the PCs and human NPCs. Since you can't fly over the castle walls, you have to find another way in (such as bribing a guard, going over the walls on a midnight raid, or mounting a seige). Harn really forces players and DMs to rethink the way they play. I think that's a very good thing. Even if you don't stay with Harn, the things you learn there can make for valuable lessons the next time you play a higher fantasy game.

 

[Renshai]

Kaptain Kantrip wrote:

was that you behaved poorly there, posting complaints and proposed inflammatory "changes" just to make trouble, sending out abusive emails and/or private messages, and generally causing trouble when you didn't get the answers you hoped for to your posted questions...

And you don't think you didnt do the same thing in the Worst/Best setting poll, when you called FR retarded and basically implied that d20 was video gamish and hack & slash?

Ren

 

[Desdichado]

If you want a convenient anology, look to the distinction betweenn that horrible 70s art rock which mistook pomposity with music versus the classic age of R&B pop, New Wave, etc... I rest my case....

Although in another world I'd be agreeing with you 100% and calling you my long-lost brother, today you really have to look back at the classic age of New Wave and admit that most of it was pretty disposable, one-hit wonder fad-rock.

Personally, I'm more a fan of the post Golden Age New Wave (Silver Age New Wave?) of the later 80s and earliest 90s. It wasn't always as clever, but it was more artistic without being bombastic and pompous.

EDIT: Whoops, is this OT? Uhh, I like d20 and am not really interested in Harn... Oh, and hi, SHARK! I do agree that how you say things makes a big difference (I oughtta know, I come across online as a pretty acerbic, opinionated, high-handed jerk most of the time -- probably because secretly I really am an acerbic, opinionated, high-handed jerk -- and it gets me in trouble more than I'd like) but the content really wasn't all that different. I think KK got a bit of a bad rap by some folks that simply didn't want to hear anything that might be construed as bad about their favorite system.

 

[Warchild]

I think KK is getting jumped on a bit unfairly. A little bit, anyway. I've seen many of his posts. Though he is quite outspoken and ocassionally...boisterous in stating his views, i don't think i've read any real malice or anger in his posts. Just vigor.
I do think he could benefit from going over his post a second time(or third if he already does) before hitting the reply button.

I think saying the D20 isn't a "power up game" is shading the issue. It was created to model the Matrix type fantasy games, IM-ever so-HO. Cleaving through hoards of opponents or calling down meteor clouds certaintly sounds like it fits the bill to me (Diablo and Final Fantasy anyone). I don't see anything wrong with it. I think 3E was created to model action movies and some computer games. I don't see where this some huge insult. Or even fully a marketing ploy. I think it was supposed to be fun. I'm not a hundred percent on it, but i think i'll stick to my guns on that opinion.
Sure you change parts of it, who the heck doesn't? But the default is high fantasy/action.

I've read though some Harn material in my days and the system is certaintly heavily geared to low-magic grit. Its a very different style than CORE/default D&D (whichever edition). No big deal. Again, i see no insult here. I personally like grittier settings (my gaming group isn't so much into them, however) and think it can certaintly be done with D20. It would take work however, because a mood change alone would not suffice. Quite a bit of rules tweaking would be needed as CORE (or STOCK if thats not too insulting maybe) D&D is not set up to work this way. Again, i don't see some big insult there.
That said, I really don't see where Harn requires all that much intellect to understand. Thats a bit of self-aggrandizement on the part of Harn patriots if you ask me. The same would go with Rolemaster. As someone has already said, you need diligence, more than intelligence.

But, opinions are nothing, if not equally worthless!!


EDIT: Damn typos........

 

[Sulimo]

You may be laughing now, but I bet that if any of you tried to play Rolemaster for any length of time, your 2 and 3-digit arithmetic skills would improve significantly. Call me an elitist if you want, but it's a fact that I never get shortchanged at the cash register any more. I doubt Harn has any such success stories to back it up. I really don't see what all this fuss is about...

Hehe. Yeah, I've been playing Rolemaster since the mid-eighties. And still am...gives me all the grit I need and the ability to run high fantasy when needed (I use it for my current Scarred Lands game).

 

[Ace]

double post


deleted

Ace

 

[Ace]

Hehe. Yeah, I've been playing Rolemaster since the mid-eighties. And still am...gives me all the grit I need and the ability to run high fantasy when needed (I use it for my current Scarred Lands game).

Lucky Dog, my Rolemaster group fell apart and I haven'rt been able to find another

BTW You may want to go here http://www.guildcompanion.com

they have some rolemaster discussions going on and can always use new blood

You will find me there as Ace once in a while

Oh just don't bring up 3e, there are a certain number of folks there who simply hate the game and aren't polite about it

Their loss

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

I think KK is getting jumped on a bit unfairly. A little bit, anyway. I've seen many of his posts. Though he is quite outspoken and ocassionally...boisterous in stating his views, i don't think i've read any real malice or anger in his posts. Just vigor.

I do think he could benefit from going over his post a second time(or third if he already does) before hitting the reply button.

Thanks! There is no anger or malice... just vigorous, boundless enthusiasm, which can get in the way of me formulating responses that don't ruffle a few feathers.

 

[Sakzilla]

That history bit

I think it was ACE a page back that made a comment about a Harn game appealing to the history book-type. As someone who has played Harn and 3E (and Rolemaster!) and owns gobs of the stuff from all the systems, I do agree.

A good friend of mine is a history major at ASU, and loves the Harn stuff. Especially the realistic combat consequences. To me, that is the best part of the Harn system. And he is all over Viking-style campaigns up in that area. And he plays in my 3E campaign as a brilliant contributor. [A friend of HIS is a Harn-only guy that does not get invited to anything I do - he is condescending, aloof, and quite annoying, but that is him, not Harn]

Another friend of mine is very inteligent and can't stand the Harn stuff - 3E floats his boat and we all have a good time.

Take these things in context - for a "Knights-Templars in the Crusades" campaign what did we use? Harnmaster of course! We are in a realistic setting using history books (Go Osprey Publishing!!!) and it applies. When I want to trot out a black dragon and a band of gnoll shamans, 3E is where its at. A Harn village is incredible for the detail - you never forget ANYTHING when you steal one of these for your own campaign. And then have those gnolls burn it down...


Am I most common denominator? As someone who must DM all the time, I certainly hope so! I can draw material from hundreds of companies and thousands of settings, ideas, and (gasp!) history books. I love this stuff, and balance it with full time work and MBA course work.

Ron

 

[ColonelHardisson]

What follows is a general rant, not necessarily inspired by anyone or anything in this thread...but it seems in keeping with what the thread is discussing.

Y'know something? The more I see arguments along the lines of "[insert any given game here] is for [insert flattering portrayal of aforementioned game's fan base], while [insert either D&D3e or d20] appeals only to [insert unflattering portrayal of D&D3e or d20 fans]," the more tired I become of gaming, or at least online gaming communities. I see this kind of reasoning on HackMaster boards, boards devoted to D&D of editions other than 3e, and boards devoted to RPGs from GURPS to Harn to Chaosium's BRP to...well, you get the picture. And, yes, we see the reverse, where D&D3e or d20 is seen as the be all and end all of RPGs, and the rest suck.

I keep saying it - it's geeks calling geeks geeks.

Almost every gamer I've met in real life has been reasonable, friendly, and willing to give new and different games a try. I've never run across, in real life, the sheer vitriol and venom found online when it comes to the relative merits of one game against another. Is it because people who hold such hateful opinions have no other outlet for their venting? Or is it simply people being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative? I don't know.

I'm especially mystified by people who play really obscure games - and Harn, for example, in the scheme of things, is pretty obscure, in the objective sense of the word - that are extremely vocal about their disdain for other RPGs. There really aren't that many RPG players out there to begin with; why alienate potential players? I don't know about everywhere, but I know that in my area, which is a major metroplitan area, there aren't enough gamers (and thus games) for someone to afford the luxury of pooh-poohing the possibility of playing a game that might not be one's first choice. More than likely, someone with such an attitude would not be gaming at all, or doing online gaming. Online gaming is an interesting alternative, and very handy for someone who lives in a remote area or is housebound, but gaming really is a social endeavor that is best when done face-to-face. I think keeping an open mind, and trying to acquire a taste for other RPGs, would be a good way to go.

I've played plenty of RPGs over the years. I'm lucky in that my favorite has been D&D. But, believe me, the times that I had the opportunity to game, even if it was a game I normally wouldn't choose to play, I took the opportunity and had fun. I've seen people vow things like "I would never play 3e (or whatever game)! Death would be better!" Come on. Such a person who is really so dogmatically inflexible must not actually game, but rather sits with the books, alone, rolling up characters for games never played. And maybe they deserve such a fate, for being so fanatical about something that should be taken lightly - a game.

Maybe I just need a break from this stuff...