Harniacs vs. d20/D&D players

[HellHound]

Patrick & KK;

The "writing level" debate about Harn is ridiculous. I have been trying to stay out of this debate, but I *have* to throw in my 5 coppers here.

I read each and every Harn supplement as it was released, starting with the old boxed set and through the Encyclopedia Harnicas and so on. I stopped about... 8 or 9 years ago I guess - basically when I stopped running my OD&D Harn campaign.

Now, I hear that to have read and understood these books I should have had a college education and been above the 13-14 age line that D&D is supposedly written for.

Let's see... I *STOPPED* reading the Harn materials when I turned 21. I understood them all. I enjoyed them. I generally consider myself fairly dense, placing my INT in D&D terms at around an 8 or 9. I have no college or university education. I am a steelworker by trade.

I didn't need a dictionary, thesaurus or encyclopedia to explain the texts to me.

Unless someone went through and recently re-wrote the Harn materials in the past 10 years to be truly arcane texts, your arguments are BUNK.

Edited: oops! embarrassing typo!

 

[Patrick-S&S]

Unless someone went through and recently re-wrote the Harn materials in the past 10 years to be truly arcane texts, your arguments are BUNK.

You are entitled to an opinion of course even if I do not stand behind it. I do not say that you need a degree in English to understand Hârn or that D&D is written for the feeble minded capable of only understanding a mild text version of a game. But I can't for one single moment say that (I am not KK) they are written for the same crowd, not now, not ever. Hârn is written for a different type of gamer, with a different type of background, and often with a dry historical tone that use words, expressions, and statements that not everybody grasp, or likes (most don't). It is not an elitistic game because of it, it is a different game because it caters to a different crowd of people, much like D&D caters to one sort or ten.

I have friends who game other RPGs and they have slight problems understanding the bulk of the Hârn material, while they have no problem reading say Players' Handbook and understanding it all. I am not saying that Hârn is a better system since that is in the eye of the beholder, and I am definately not saying that D&D is crap. But telling me that there is no difference between the two in the writing is not correct. It is almost like there is no difference in a script for two different movies, or books, and ever computer games. And that of course is pure BUNK (or whatever) indeed.

I have both systems and a few others and IMO it is like with a book, there is a differnce, be it for good or bad. I have had my final say in this matter since it seems to have escalated into something that I feel I haven't fueled. I hope for the people here at EnWorld that you will have a pleasant future gaming/posting since that is what I will have over at the Hârn Forum. I will pop in now and then to add a few d20 downloads for those who use that system in Hârn. Until then game often and well.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Patrick & KK;
Unless someone went through and recently re-wrote the Harn materials in the past 10 years to be truly arcane texts, your arguments are BUNK.
i]

Patrick answered the ridiculous allegation above better than me. [edit out possibly incendiary reply]

Having started with 1e at 12, I can say that Gygax's writing left me running to the dictionary and scratching my head on more than one occasion. The reason I stuck with it was the sense of danger and mystery the game presented, something I think is lacking in 2e and 3e, but which I have found in Harn and Cthulhu.

Certainly all RPGs broaden and strengthen a gamer's vocabulary, math, memory and stimulate their imagination. I would never kick my parents ass at Scrabble consistently were it not for the vocabulary Gygaxian D&D blessed me with, LOL. Harn has given my aging brain its first real "RPG work out" in years, and that is another reason I like it so much. It makes me feel like that 12 year old kid picking up the 1e DMG for the first time and going, "OMG! What the heck is all this craziness? I'm in love!"

Maybe SHARK can write all my posts for me from now on so I don't offend anyone and still get my point across, LOL.

 

[tjasamcarl]

Pathetic

Let me just address this notion that a setting or system has an 'intelligence' factor that varies from its brethren. Through pop culture venues that extend beyond rping, i have an appreciation of what qualities tend to be equated with 'intelligence' by their niche audience, most notably complexity. Complexity does not work through intelligence, but instead effort. If Harn were more INTELLIGENT it would go beyond the 'realistic portrayal of the middle ages' which its advocates have associated with it...please read the following carefully: ITS VERY EASY TO BE COMPLEX, AND EVEN EASIER TO BE BOTH COMPLEX AND CLICHE. If Harn were really more intelligent, it would expand the perspective of those who read it from their existing standpoint without bombarding them with minute details.

If you want a convenient anology, look to the distinction betweenn that horrible 70s art rock which mistook pomposity with music versus the classic age of R&B pop, New Wave, etc... I rest my case....

 

[Sir Gedron Drazzi]

New poster to enworld

Just thought I pop over from the Harn forum to see what all the fuss was about.

Personaly it just does not matter which system you use just as long as you and your players are having fun... thats the bottom line of it all.

For the record, I use HarnMaster core rules and love them, recently tried d20 3e and did'nt care for it but will be giving it another try to be fair... does this matter to anyone here? Nope!
And it should not. Who cares? I just want to play because I'm a gammer and I love it still, even after 20 odd years.

On a sad note though... I have to use my harnic jousting persona here because "Gothmog" was allready taken... damn them!

Happy gaming

James Hoefling aka: Captain Gedron aka: Gothmog

 

[Sulimo]

Does that mean that D&D is only for the LCD of gamers? No. It is written to be accessible to the largest audience (post Gygax, that is!). That is a marketing strategy, not an insult to anyone's intelligence. Sheesh!

Funny you should mention post-Gygax...the old 1e books really helped me with my literacy and vocabulary when I was growing up. I have to admit its been a little sad to watch the language become simpler over time (or perhaps standardised is a less offensive term).

 

[nazgul]

You may be laughing now, but I bet that if any of you tried to play Rolemaster for any length of time, your 2 and 3-digit arithmetic skills would improve significantly. Call me an elitist if you want, but it's a fact that I never get shortchanged at the cash register any more. I doubt Harn has any such success stories to back it up. I really don't see what all this fuss is about...

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Funny you should mention post-Gygax...the old 1e books really helped me with my literacy and vocabulary when I was growing up. I have to admit its been a little sad to watch the language become more and more simpler (or perhaps standardised is a less offensive term).

Hi there! Yes, there is a huge difference between the writing level of 1e (Gygax & Co.) vs. later editions. Gygax made you think, whether you wanted to or not, because you simply didn't have a choice if you wanted to play. Other RPGs of the time, such as Chivalry & Sorcery, Call of Cthulhu, or Traveler) were even MORE complicated to learn. Later editions of D&D (and most other RPGs) attempted to bring the writing level down a notch (or several, by some opinions) to reach a wider audience. This is a marketing strategy, as I've said before, and is a perfectly valid (and some would say, preferable) tactic. Here's a little math analogy for you: Easier to comprehend = more players = more money.

D&D has been "dumbed down" post-Gygax. Whether or not that's a good thing is up to the individual. I see it as both good and bad. The game is now easier to understand than ever (except for AoO's, LOL), and anyone can quickly and easily pick up the rules in short order. It also means that you aren't getting the same mental workout 1e gave you.

What people seem to be disputing is that Harn's writing level is more sophistocated than D&D 3e. I would offer that Harn is even more complex than that of Gygax/1e D&D. That doesn't make it "for smartypants elitists" anymore than 1e D&D was. It does make it harder to fully grasp than D&D 2e/3e was, and therefore it tends to draw an older, more sophisticated style of gamer than D&D, and a much smaller number. This is not meant as a slam!

Again, this does not mean "only dummies play D&D". I never said that, so please stop twisting my words around. Many smart people play D&D. There is nothing wrong with playing D&D. Hell, I've played D&D (in every edition) for nigh on two decades now. I have been a vocal advocate of d20 on this forum and the Harn one for quite some time now.

CLARIFICATION:
In my previous posts, I have noticed a point of confusion that was my fault due to a form of "mental shorthand" I practiced...

Most of the time when I am referring to D&D and people say that my issues are setting more than rules specific, they are right. I am referring to official D&D settings and adventures much of the time when I complain about high fantasy/hack-n-slash. When I complain about "video game mentality" I am referring to 3e's rules. They are all "D&D" but the distinction should have been made by me earlier. No doubt this also caused confusion between Harn (the world) and HarnMaster (the rules). My apologies for any confusion!

 

[Ace]

Sorry, but sounds boring. I can be broke and powerless in real life, I don't need a game for that. Stick to closely to 12th century Europe and all the game will be is trudging through mud until you get sick and die. And if there is magic and monsters in it, there have better be some dang good reasons that it stays like 12th century Europe

That's just me, though.

I can appreciate what you are saying here. I have played Harn Master 1e, the staff of Fannon Module and I own Harn World.

The maps are glorious, the writing superb and the level of detail beyond compare. While I have a low opinion of the Religion, it doesn't feel right to me, I have a high appreciation of the work in generaL

It is also unplayable by my group.

Even with occasional Ivashu (god made monsters) and the side trexs to Evael the ultra low magic and tiny population of Harn make it seem claustraphobic to me.

It just feels like there is nothing to really do on Harn. In a real feudal society, like the one portrayed in Harn, things are pretty static.

I just can't come up with interesting action packed things to do there and that is a turn off for my players.

This is JMO but Harn is for more cerebral types of games, and even more than Ars Magica, best played with a pack of historians not typical gamers.

Also other than obviously the market size I have never been able to figure out why a D&D/Harn pairing is a good idea.

They are totally different in style and focus.

A much better pairing would have been GURPS/Harn or maybe the one I understand is happening now Chivalry and Sorcery/Harn.

 

[Ds Da Man]

Who wants realism? I play a RPG/fantasy setting because I know enough about the real world. I want to kill bad things, become a hero, and save a beautiful damsel in distress. I want guys who can do Matrix stunts. I want something that I can get excitement from, not boring "realistic" crap. I don't want to be a shopkeeper, I want to be a slayer of dragons. Harn players keep on Harnin', D&D players keep on hackin' and roleplaying (albeit, not in a "realistic" fantasy world.