Harniacs vs. d20/D&D players

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Perhaps I let my enthusiasm cloud some of my statements--flaming or insulting anyone was not my intention--so I certainly apologize to anyone who was offended. However, I do think a lot of what I said was immediately misconstrued or intentionally twisted to fan the flames.

It is almost impossible to explain the difference between Harn (the rules independent setting) and any of D&D's settings without ruffling feathers. The same goes for comparing the HarnMaster rules system and D&D rules. Saying that Harn is written for a higher level of reading comprehension (true) is immediately twisted around into "Harn is for smart people, D&D is for dummies." I don't believe I ever said that, and if I did (being too lazy to reread all my posts) I apologize, for that would be a blatant mischaracterization of D&D players. SHARK perhaps summed up my opinions best, and I thank him for "interpreting" my position into more palatable terms.

I have a ton of d20 and D&D material; I still game it and enjoy it, but simply prefer a lower fantasy, grittier, more realistic setting (and rules) right now. 3e has burned me out in record time on high fantasy.

Psion: A clarification--I said "Much of the third party product is high fantasy hack-n-slash" and I stand by this statement. Some product isn't, such as the ones you mentioned, or 3 Days To Kill by Atlas, or Shades of Gray by Auran (originally a Harn.de adventure called Web of the Widow on CD-Rom), but most of it is high fantasy, and assumes everyone is playing such, because that is the type of game supported by WoTC and their "back to the dungeon" (video game) mentality in designing 3e.

3e and d20 can certainly be used to play other than high fantasy, but it works best in its basic (unaltered) form for cinematic, heroic, four-color comic book, high fantasy games like D&D or Spycraft. It must be radically altered (such as in Call of Cthulhu) in order to work in darker, grittier games. I'm talking about character creation, classes and magic, which resemble little of their D&D counterparts in Cthulhu. That WoTC did such a great job bending and twisting d20 to fit Cthulhu is testimony to the flexibility of the rules. I never said d20 was for morons, or little kids. It's written to be accessible to teenagers (target audience), which means it is easily understood by the most number of people. That's a strength and a weakness. Harn, being more complicated (and written by a curmudgeonly medieval history professor), is written for college age/educated types (target audience), which means it is understood by a much smaller number of people. This is a strength and a weakness. Playing D&D does not make you dumber than one playing Harn, and playing Harn does not make you smarter than one playing D&D.

I'm playing d20 rules (tweaked) mixed with other d20: Cthulhu, Spycraft, Swashbuckling Adventures and Fading Suns for my game set in Harn. I had to mix-n-match feats, classes and magic to get the type of game feel I wanted. HarnMaster would probably be better for gaming Harn, but I'm waiting for the new fourth edition to come out before switching from d20.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

[/color]
And what's all this other stuff? SHARK get's all kinds of respect (not that he doesn't deserve it) for saying essentially the same thing as KK, while KK is blasted by a bunch of reactionaries? Perhaps SHARK's tone was better (OK, it definitely was) but he said the same thing that pissed everyone off when KK said it.

Geez! Some thin skins around here!

That's what I thought!

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

[/color]
I disagree. I think D&D is a LCD for RPGs in general. Not necessarily because it's a better, simpler or anything along those lines, just because it was first, it's still by far the most familiar, and it has a big user base.

And what's all this other stuff? SHARK get's all kinds of respect (not that he doesn't deserve it) for saying essentially the same thing as KK, while KK is blasted by a bunch of reactionaries? Perhaps SHARK's tone was better (OK, it definitely was) but he said the same thing that pissed everyone off when KK said it.

I can't believe I'm even stepping into this, since I'm not a Harn fan, have never looked at Harn and really don't care one way or another. But lets face it folks, we like d20 and all that, but it's not the be-all end-all of game systems. It was purposely designed to be easily accessible and useable by anyone who wants to game (not that it necessarily is all that great in that regard, IMO the PHB reads like a really bad textbook) so it's not really an insult if someone says Harn was written at a higher reading level because it was aimed at more scholarly audience.

Geez! Some thin skins around here!

I'm shocked to hear this from you!

 

[Vaxalon]

Both comments were elitist, snobbish and untrue.

First, I'll address the idea that the least common denominator doesn't exist.

I'll explain what I mean by LCD: An LCD gamer is one that may or may not have a keen mind for facts and details, (you'd find it hard to play if you didn't) but what he lacks is the initiative to strike out and do new things. Most people are sheep. They do what they think is expected of them, usually by their peer group. Clearyly, these kinds of people DO exist. When I talk about LCD gamers, I'm talking about people who don't have much in the way of initiative or individuality.

Now, I'll address the idea that DnD doesn't attract the least common denominator.

DND is the most popular roleplaying game in the world. There are many people who will not play anything else. For White Wolf and GURPS games, which are #2 and #3, this is also true, though somewhat less so. DND tends to be the first game they ever encounter, and they tend to stick with it. For other games, people are willing to try other games. This means that LCD gamers, who are, by the definition listed above, not interested in change, are unlikely to find out about other games, unlikely to try them, and unlikely to switch if they do try them.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Forgive my ignorance (again)...

but isn't Harn a MMORPG? I don't know anything about it from the advertisements I briefly glanced at in Dragon, but it sure looked like there were some computer screenshots there. What was that?

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Re: Re: Harn is flame bait

Harn is two things:

1) HarnWorld: A rules independent, realistic low fantasy setting. Many supplements exist, including adventures and kingdom expansion modules for added detail.

2) HarnMaster: A rules system complimentary to running games set in HarnWorld, historical medieval simulations (such as their Lionheart setting), or low fantasy games in general.

There was talk of a Harn computer game, but it fell through and was never completed. The ads in Dragon for Harn.de were to push copies of Auran's first CD-Rom Interactive Harn adventure, WEB OF THE WIDOW (available from Columbia Games). Auran dropped their Harn line and converted all their adventures to a generic setting, in part due to the outrage of Harn fans, who felt that Auran was radically and unwisely altering Harn to make it more like D&D. Widow was renamed Shades of Gray (with all Harnic references removed) and is available at Auran's site as a free download (without the CD-Rom goodies). I was not privy to all the hoopla over Auran's actions (they wanted to make a Harn computer game but felt that the public should be exposed to the setting first to build "brand name recognition"--although Diablo and Daggerfall did fine without P&P games); I have heard pro and anti Auran arguments. Shades of Gray (Web of the Widow) was a good adventure, but many D&Ders complained it was too hard to solve the mystery and it didn't have enough combat... I could insert a sly, off the cuff comment about LCD and D&D, but I won't.

 

[Wicht]

I think the problems people are having here is one of communication. And the problem is in the unfortunate choice of "phraseology" that some are employeeing. The continued use of these phrases and ideas will only lead to more flames. Please Note:

#1) The mere use of the phrase, "lowest common denominator," is insulting. The lowest common denominator of humanity barbeque kittens and kidnap and murder 5 year olds. Intellectually, the lowest common denominator are those who are the least intelligent. No mass produced role-playing game caters to this crowd.

#2) 3e DnD does not resemble a video game, nor does it resemble Diablo. Read some of the story hours. The fact that one levels in the game does not mean that it borrows from video games in which a player grows ever more powerful. Just the opposite, those games borrowed from DnD which did it first. This is a time honored part of the game/genre that was around long before video games were even thought of. Moreover - to insist that leveling makes the game less intellectual or more adolescent is plain silly. This is not fact. This is the statement of opinion and should be prefaced as such. Moreover to keep insisting that all DnD players have some sort of video game mentality is demeaning and insulting.

You may believe, and maybe rightfully so (I don't really know), that Harn is a better game or setting. But if you cannot make the point without insulting the games and/or playing styles of others, then you should leave the explaining to others.

 

[Desdichado]

Flexor: why is that? In general I do support d20 and show little interest in other systems. Is that what you mean?

That doesn't mean I think d20 is necessarily a superior system, just that it meets my needs well enough, and I'm not interested in learning other systems anymore. Also, I prefer to have players than not!

KK: I think you underestimate the flexibility of d20 though. CoC didn't necessarily "drastically" change D&D. The classes were more like NPC classes, but that's not big deal. The real kicker was the instant death threshold being lowered, which is a very minor change with very big implications.

IMO, if I wanted grim n gritty "realistic" dark fantasy, I'd lower that instant death threshold (already done in CoC), slow advancement down to a crawl (suggested in the DMG), eliminate the high-magic character classes and replace them with something else (lots of non-magical "rangers" and such out there, and other magic systems are not quite a dime a dozen, but there's a few good alternatives) change armor to DR (already done in Star Wars) and off you go.

To me, the detail of Harnworld doesn't necessarily ask for my attention. Detail isn't hard to generate on your own, especially if you happen to read history as a hobby (which many gamers do) and I certainly don't need systems to replicate it. A setting that is more conducive to grim and gritty playing, however, I can see a need for. But I think the changes to D&D (d20) to get there can be accomplished real easy.

 

[TiQuinn]

I'll explain what I mean by LCD: An LCD gamer is one that may or may not have a keen mind for facts and details, (you'd find it hard to play if you didn't) but what he lacks is the initiative to strike out and do new things. Most people are sheep. They do what they think is expected of them, usually by their peer group. Clearyly, these kinds of people DO exist. When I talk about LCD gamers, I'm talking about people who don't have much in the way of initiative or individuality.

Now, I'll address the idea that DnD doesn't attract the least common denominator.

DND is the most popular roleplaying game in the world. There are many people who will not play anything else. For White Wolf and GURPS games, which are #2 and #3, this is also true, though somewhat less so. DND tends to be the first game they ever encounter, and they tend to stick with it. For other games, people are willing to try other games. This means that LCD gamers, who are, by the definition listed above, not interested in change, are unlikely to find out about other games, unlikely to try them, and unlikely to switch if they do try them.

Most people do not play role-playing games, as Wicht pointed out. Therefore, those who do play RPGs do have initative, do seek out new things, and don't typically adhere to expectations of their peer group. Whether they play d20, Harn, White Wolf, GURPS, or CoC is irrelevant. Which is why I think that comparing Harn to D&D and claiming one or the other is for the LCD is an untrue statement.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

#2) 3e DnD does not resemble a video game, nor does it resemble Diablo. Read some of the story hours. The fact that one levels in the game does not mean that it borrows from video games in which a player grows ever more powerful. Just the opposite, those games borrowed from DnD which did it first. This is a time honored part of the game/genre that was around long before video games were even thought of. Moreover - to insist that leveling makes the game less intellectual or more adolescent is plain silly. This is not fact. This is the statement of opinion and should be prefaced as such. Moreover to keep insisting that all DnD players have some sort of video game mentality is demeaning and insulting.

I don't think it's the fact that PC's level, it's the speed at which they level according to the core rules that give that feeling to some, me at least. Everything is jacked up over previous editions as well. PC's get a lot more power compared to say 1e or 2e.