Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince point of discussion (Spoilers)

[Taelorn76]

This thought occured to me last night. Does anyone else think that maybe the Order is using Harry as a pawn to defeat Vold. He survived his initial attack and the Order brought him under their wings to mold him and shape him the for their own means.

 

[Desdichado]

I believe that Dumbledore is entirely dead. Despite the phoenix imagery, there's also been tons of foreshadowing in the books that once dead, always dead; no spell can resurrect the dead, etc.

Although I do admit that there's some dodgy passages that seem like they're purposefully set up to cast potential doubt in the readers as to whether or not Dumbledore's really gone or not too. I suppose I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it turns out he faked his death, but I don't really believe that that's the case.

And Crothian! Wow, given the thread topic, that's not only pretty much irrelevent, but could pretty fairly be considered to be trolling.

 

[billd91]

This thought occured to me last night. Does anyone else think that maybe the Order is using Harry as a pawn to defeat Vold. He survived his initial attack and the Order brought him under their wings to mold him and shape him the for their own means.

I don't think this is in the character of anybody in the Order. They're the good guys. They want to mold Harry, yes. But they want to mold him into being a decent young man. If that means he then has the moral strength to challenge Voldemort, that's fine. But I don't think any of that could ever be characterized as using him as a pawn.

Molly Weasley would probably annihilate anybody who tried.

 

[Crothian]

And Crothian! Wow, given the thread topic, that's not only pretty much irrelevent, but could pretty fairly be considered to be trolling.

In a thread talking about a book, mentioning the writer is not the most skilled and that people might be reading (funny pun!!) too much into the book because of that is irrelevant and trolling?? I don't see it as either Joshua, I just don't see it.

 

[Desdichado]

Well, I guess I can see the relevence that way, although that's not terribly clear.

To me, it came across more as a "let's talk about potential future plot points because we're all fans of the books and want to debate the future direction of the series" and you came in and said; "eh, she's rubbish as an author anyway--who cares?"

But, I've been known to read intent badly at times when it comes to Internet postings and whatnot.

 

[F5]

I'm also in the camp that says that Dumbledore is only mostly dead.

The phoenix imagery surrounding him is too strong to ignore. I'm not sure in what way he will come back, but he WILL come back.

Several thought about what being "dead" gives him: He's become a portrait in the headmaster's office. So is Slytherin (as an original founder of the school). We know the pictures in Hogwarts can interact with each other...maybe Dumbledore went straight to the source? Or, assuming he faked his death, a regular, magical picture will move and act as if it were one of the headmaster portraits. It could still be part of an elaborate ruse.

Harry and friends still have his pensive. Say he "downloaded" himself into the pensieve before everything went down. He'll still be "there" to advise and guide. It would be almost like finding a way to set himself up with a Horcrux, without having to, you know...break his soul, or anything.

Another thought (having just seen the fouth movie, the image is fresh in my mind...) the whole "priori incantatum" thing with the two similar wands causing feedback. Harry's wand is made from the same feather as Voldemort's wand, so they react, and all the souls killed by voldemort's wand appear. Maybe someone has a wand that matches Snape's, and this is a way to get Dumbledore into the "inner circle" in a horribly convoluted way?

 

[Vocenoctum]

Just to get the theory out--Snape became a deatheater because he loved Potter's mom and wanted the power to take her. He left the deatheaters when Voldemort killed the woman he loved, thus Dumbledore always saying love is more powerful than Dark Magic.

The problem I have with Snape's Deatheater history;
Snape heard a portion of the prophecy, thus starting Vold on the Potter Path.

somewhere in here, Snape turns to the Order of the Phoenix, feeding them information. (Per Dumbledore's testimony.)

Voldemort kills Lily, and is destroyed.


I'm not sure when they learned that Vold was going after the Potters, but I think Lily's death can't be responsibile for Snape's conversion to the Phoenix Order, given Voldemort was destroyed within moments of her death.

So, yeah, Snape may have left because of Vold killing Lily, but when Lily was killed it became a nonissue, since Vold was destroyed immediately thereafter. The prophecy is what prompted Tre-lady to be hired, she was present for 16 years in book 5. So, time-wise, it's only a couple years between the prophecy and Lily's death, at the most, probably 1 year for really knowing it was her child that the prophecy might mean. At what point Snape joined the Phoenix Order, I haven't seen, but I'm still not sure it was because of Lily.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Several thought about what being "dead" gives him: He's become a portrait in the headmaster's office. So is Slytherin (as an original founder of the school). We know the pictures in Hogwarts can interact with each other...maybe Dumbledore went straight to the source? Or, assuming he faked his death, a regular, magical picture will move and act as if it were one of the headmaster portraits. It could still be part of an elaborate ruse.

The portrait was still asleep anyway, so there's no proof it's his "death picture".

The neatest thing I think of, is when Dumbledore is kicked out of the groups in Book 5, and remarks to (er, Ron maybe), that he's fine, as long as they don't take him off the trading cards.

If he can go to any picture of himself, and his pictures are on trading cards...

 

[lrsach01]

Dumbledore is probably not dead. Would go against story telling tradition and JK Rowling tends to follow story telling tradition.

Actually, Dumbledore being dead is COMPLETELY within story telling tradition going right back to mythology. The wise old wizard/mentor almost always dies/leaves so the hero can grow as a character. Look at Merlin and Arthur, Obiwan and Luke, Phoenix and Achilles (although I'm a little fuzzy on that last one).

 

[Desdichado]

Phoenix and Achilles (although I'm a little fuzzy on that last one).

I can imagine so. Achilles mentor was Chiron, and he was not killed that I remember. The Phoenix was an Egyptian, not a Greek myth, and it's the familiar ressurrection bird, not anyone's mentor.