Pathfinder 1E Has Anyone Considered These House Rules for Pathfinder?

Retreater

Legend
Long story short: I like a lot of the changes implemented in 4E, but my group still likes 3.5/Pathfinder. Has anyone made a Pathfinder/4E crossover?

I'm looking particularly with help on the following issues:

1) Iterative attacks.
2) Magic item dependence.
3) Fixed enhancement bonus (connected to #2) [similar to Dark Sun or DM's Guide 2].
4) AC scaling with level.
5) Removal or alteration of game-changing spells (fly, find the path, divination, etc.)

Retreater
 

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If I were to "fix" (by which I mean eliminate) iterative attacks, I'd go the Star Wars Saga Edition route. As a starting point:

  • There are no iterative attacks based on BAB.
  • Everyone gets +1/2 damage per level on all attacks.
  • Two new feats exist:
    • One (Double Attack) requires BAB +6, and gives you an additional attack with a chosen weapon when you take the full attack action, but those attacks are made at -5
    • The other (Triple Attack) requires BAB +11, and gives you another attack with a chosen weapon when you take the full attack action, but those attacks are at another -5

So, a Fighter 6 could take Double Attack (Longsword), and make a single attack at +6 with a +3 bonus to damage with a standard action, or could make two attacks at +1 with a +3 bonus to damage with a full-round action.

It seems like your point 3 covers points 2 and 4 to a large extent.
 

I am not sure what you want to achieve for this but if you are eliminating iterative attacks a small list of things you need to delete from the game

Monks
Vital Strike tree
(most of) 2 weapon fighting tree
Haste
Speed Property
Rapid Shot
Manyshot

And a list of things needing to be altered
Power Attack
Cleave (and greater)
Double weapons
Base Attack Bonus progression on all but d10
Unarmed Strikes (feat and actual attacks with it)

Like I said, a small list but it is also huge changes
 

Long story short: I like a lot of the changes implemented in 4E, but my group still likes 3.5/Pathfinder. Has anyone made a Pathfinder/4E crossover?

I'm looking particularly with help on the following issues:

1) Iterative attacks.
2) Magic item dependence.
3) Fixed enhancement bonus (connected to #2) [similar to Dark Sun or DM's Guide 2].
4) AC scaling with level.
5) Removal or alteration of game-changing spells (fly, find the path, divination, etc.)

Retreater

Hmmm. Well, off-hand I'd say that just about everything you've listed has been discussed in some fashion for almost the 10 years that 3.x rules have been around. Pathfinder's primary goal was backwards compatibility, so you're going to kinda need to be specific about _what_ you want to do exactly. From there, you'll be able to sort out the houserules folks have come up with over the years and then see if those are applicable to Pathfinder.

One thing you might consider, if you don't mind spending $5 U.S. is some of the stuff in Trailblazer. You can find it here:
Trailblazer - Bad Axe Games | RPGNow.com

It was initially meant to be compatible with Pathfinder and really shouldn't be a problem to integrate in if you so desire.

That should help deal with points 1,2, and probably 4.

A personal note on Point 1 (Iterative attacks):
This is a bit of a contentious issue. A lot of gamers insist on wanting iterative attacks for a variety of reasons. I personally happen to be unconvinced by them and think that iterative attacks are more of a hassle than they're worth.

The solution presented in Trailblazer is an attempt to keep everyone happy. My own personal solution in the past has been far simpler: Eliminate iterative attacks and add BaB to damage. So yes, a level 10 Fighter would have a +10 to damage in addition to anything else. I was always fine with it and didn't feel it either overshadowed the rest of the group, or that the Fighter's ability to inflict damage was somehow hindered by not having iterative attacks. YMMV and all the usual butt-covering disclaimers.

Point 3 (Fixed enhancement bonus) aka "Page 42":
There've been a few discussions about this, but no real definite solution that I'm aware of (possible that I've missed something though). Part of the problem you're bumping up against is the fact that 3.x rules are deliberately designed to be unbalanced and Pathfinder kept that sensibility.

In trying to address this sort of approach, you also have to decide what to do as far as the magic items are concerned. If you design things in such as way as to address your 2nd point (Magic item dependence) through the use of a bonus, then you're going to have to deal with all the magic items already in the game.

It's not an insoluable problem, but I'm not aware of a solution that folks like and doesn't simply introduce a set of other problems as far as people are concerned. Again, Trailblazer may help you out in this regard.

Point 5 (alteration of game-changing spells ):
Good luck. People have been messing with this for years. Solutions vary and folks don't agree. Some GMs don't have a problem with them, some do. Some players are basically uninterested in playing if a GM is going to "gimp" the spells the way the GM feels they ought to be. You'll get and find all kinds of advice ranging from "Don't worry about it" to GMs talking about flat out removing the spells, and GMs talking about how they effectively removed them from play (but still left them an option in theory) by making them so unattractive to players to take. You're pretty much on your own here.
 

For point 5, listing all the spells and what they do that you have a problem with would help people come up with ways that they would be comfortable with altering/deleting them
 

re

Long story short: I like a lot of the changes implemented in 4E, but my group still likes 3.5/Pathfinder. Has anyone made a Pathfinder/4E crossover?

I'm looking particularly with help on the following issues:

1) Iterative attacks.

I never much liked iterative attacks either. Not sure what you can do about it in 3E. I heard there is some game called E6 that caps at lvl 6 using 3E rules and has some kind of alternate advancement method you may want to look at.

I especially have been thinking of a way not to gimp archery in relation to everything else in regards to iterative attacks. The archer machine gunner has always been annoying to me. A real trained longbow user was considered very good if he could shoot one accurate shot every 12 seconds from what I have read. In D&D you have archers outputting 7 or 8 shots a 6 second round.

I've been thinking of extending the round to 30 seconds or something more resaonable. But then I would have to make adjustments for movement. I may do it anyway just so things sit better. Movement is often very abstract. So assuming you could combat move 30 feet or so in 30 seconds might not be too bad. I'll probably come up with something I'll give a try soon to suit my sensibilities.

2) Magic item dependence.

Get rid of them or severely limit them. Easily balanced.

3) Fixed enhancement bonus (connected to #2) [similar to Dark Sun or DM's Guide 2].

Modify as above. The nice thing about the 3E ruleset is it is very customizable. You get rid of something across the board and it will in general balance the situation. Though you would have to greatly modify monsters at higher level to account for the loss of enhancement bonus. But that could be done on a case by case basis. Parties fighting parties woud be much easier though.


4) AC scaling with level.

Why even use the AC mechanic if this is a problem? I never understood the reasoning behind 4E hanging on to the AC mechanic if it was looking for a way to make armor less necessary to defense.

Why didn't they go with a block, parry, and dodge mechanic like so many other game systems use with great success. I would go in that direction if I wanted to remove the simplicity of the AC mechanic.

4E gets absurd with level AC scaling. So a naked warrior can fight endless hordes of creatures without ever getting hit. That isn't even something Conan did.

I find the 3E method much better. A high level warrior has a huge number of hit points. That is what models his fighting prowess. He'll still take scratches and hits while mowing down that large group of low level warriors, but his huge hit points will make it so that he is still able to do it.

Whereas 4E he never gets hit and his hit points are huge. So he becomes an unstoppable monster against low level creatures rather than simply hard to kill.

Better to toss out the AC mechanic altogether if you want the guy to wear no armor. Either maintain the high hit point mechanic 3E uses or toss in a dodge, block, and parry mechanic. That would be a far better way to model the narrative of the scantily clad warrior than the method 4E used with the scaling AC by level.

5) Removal or alteration of game-changing spells (fly, find the path, divination, etc.)

Remove the spells across the board. Come up with some narrative reason why that type of magic doesn't work, hasn't been discovered, or isn't available.

Gods won't allow such magic because it destroys the balance of power. Gods respect privacy. Strange magical field destroys scrying. Any possible number of reasons can justify the removal of certain spells.

Just rememeber though, if you remove major defenses from your casters. You will have to ensure they still have a means to defend themselves. Fighters can do a ton of damage. And most of the time D&D gave wizards the game changing defense spells they gave them because one round from the meat grinder fighter was end game for the wizard.
 
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I'm using "inherent enhancement bonuses" in Pathfinder. All the "+X" items are removed and replaced by bonuses held by the character, not the equipment. It seems to work all right and nearly removes magic item dependence (together with "wealth by level" expectations, magic shops and a lot of economic nonsense).
The approach we use is simple. Each character gets a pool of points (roughly equal to expected gp at given level divided by 1000) and may "buy" bonuses to attributes, weapon enhancement, armor/shield enhancement, saves and skills with it (costs based on what appropriate magic items would cost).
I think it also solves your problem with AC scaling with level - players may upgrade their inherent armor bonuses, so they don't need to buy better and better armor.


I wouldn't ever decide to remove iterative attacks in 3.x or Pathfinder. Either you do it in a simple way and drastically nerf some characters (eg. rogues, monks, two-weapon rangers) while not affecting others, or you have to rewrite a huge part of the rules to make it work. Such change would also make a lot of feats and some spells obsolete. If you want to do it, it may be better to just create a new game.

As for removal of some spells, it needs to be handled with great care. I think it's much better to just limit the game to low- or mid-levels if you want to avoid big spells. Otherwise, you risk castrating the casters and removing what really makes them interesting. Make sure you discuss the matter extensively with people you plan to play with - what is acceptable for one person may break the game for other.
 

1) Iterative attacks.
2) Magic item dependence.
5) Removal or alteration of game-changing spells (fly, find the path, divination, etc.)

These three things make me think you might want to look at E6 or a variant - basically, players progress normally to level 6 and then stop gaining levels. After that point whenever they would level up they gain a feat instead.

This has the effect of removing high-level spells from the game, and limiting iterative attacks to only one additional attack for full BAB classes.

If you make the assumption that noone in the world is over level 6, it also reduces the dependance on magic items by removing any item that requires a CL over 6 - including the ability score boost items and any enhancement bonus beyond +2.
 

If you make the assumption that noone in the world is over level 6, it also reduces the dependance on magic items by removing any item that requires a CL over 6 - including the ability score boost items and any enhancement bonus beyond +2.

CL of the creator does not have to match CL of the item, so this would need to be a house rule as well.
 

Long story short: I like a lot of the changes implemented in 4E, but my group still likes 3.5/Pathfinder. Has anyone made a Pathfinder/4E crossover?

I'm looking particularly with help on the following issues:

1) Iterative attacks.
2) Magic item dependence.
3) Fixed enhancement bonus (connected to #2) [similar to Dark Sun or DM's Guide 2].
4) AC scaling with level.
5) Removal or alteration of game-changing spells (fly, find the path, divination, etc.)

Retreater

1. Iterative Attacks: I'll echo Scurvy Platypus, part of Trailblazer's design was specifically about iterative attacks. Consider it a professional level house-rule document. They thoroughly analyzed the math behind the system, and among other things, adjusted BAB's to eliminate iterative attacks while still maintaining the systems mathematical balance (encounter levels/challenge ratings, interaction with published monsters and adventures, etc.). This is one of those indispensible books that I can't live without for my 3.x/Pathfinder game rules.

2/3. Magic Item Dependence and Fixed Enhancement Bonus: The inherent bonus mechanic developed for 4E (you get a bonus at specific levels as if you had a +X magic item, but the bonus does not stack if you use a higher +X magic item) should port almost seamlessly to 3.x/Pathfinder. If you find you're running into problems with the math (characters aren't getting tough enough at appropriate levels, or are too tough at inappropriate levels), all you need to do is adjust the levels at which the bonuses kick in. Here's a thread with guidance on how to use this: Using 4e's Inherit Bonus system in pathfinder.

4. AC Scaling with Level: The Defense_Bonus variant rule from the Unearthed_Arcana_Variant_Rules_Section of the Hypertext_D20_SRD, should fill this role perfectly. It's already balanced for use with 3.x, and will work with Pathfinder exactly the same. There are other variant rules there for using armor as DR, etc. But I think the Defense Bonus mechanic is exactly what you're looking for.

5. Removal or Alteration of Game Changing Spells: The development of Pathfinder had alread done a lot of this. That was definitely a design feature when Pathfinder was being developed, but there are always differences in personal preference. As mentioned above, you may just need to go through the spells yourself, highlight the spells or portions you have problems with, and delete or alter as necessary. These threads may also be of assistance to you: Brainstorming on spell fixes ; Brainstorming on Spell LEVEL fixes.


Hope this helps. Good Luck and Play On!:D
 

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