Has anyone done the math on a TWF ranger with sword and shield?

[Quartz]

It's well understood that TWF with two weapons is inferior to using a two-handed weapon, but I'm wondering if that applies to a Ranger who follows the TWF path and takes Improved Shield Bash? Does the additional AC from the shield adequately compensate for the reduced damage?

Brucie bonus question: what about a brawler ranger - a TWF Ranger using Improved Unarmed Strike? Because a fist is the one light weapon to which Power Attack

 

[Jack Simth]

It's well understood that TWF with two weapons is inferior to using a two-handed weapon, but I'm wondering if that applies to a Ranger who follows the TWF path and takes Improved Shield Bash? Does the additional AC from the shield adequately compensate for the reduced damage?

No, because you can get the AC from the shield when using a two-handed weapon by way of an Animated Shield.

Brucie bonus question: what about a brawler ranger - a TWF Ranger using Improved Unarmed Strike? Because a fist is the one light weapon to which Power Attack

This is one of the ways to do two-weapon fighting and make it work - make the off-hand a weapon that doesn't use up the hand; a two-handed weapon + Improved Unarmed Strike or Armor Spikes is the general method.

The other way is using a rogue, and arranging to use touch attacks, rather than normal attacks (UMD wands of Produce Flame, Flame Blade, and Chill Touch).

 

[Quartz]

No, because you can get the AC from the shield when using a two-handed weapon by way of an Animated Shield.

Ah, I forgot about animated shields. I generally ban them anyway. What if we assume the absence of an animated shield?

 

[Kat']

Then you can still take Improved Buckler Defense... It's IMO a much more cost-effective solution than Animated shield.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It's well understood that TWF with two weapons is inferior to using a two-handed weapon, but I'm wondering if that applies to a Ranger who follows the TWF path and takes Improved Shield Bash? Does the additional AC from the shield adequately compensate for the reduced damage?

Brucie bonus question: what about a brawler ranger - a TWF Ranger using Improved Unarmed Strike? Because a fist is the one light weapon to which Power Attack

Math? No.

But in one of our campaigns, a player tested with a TWF Sword & Board Ranger. It worked fine, at least till around 12th level, when he became bored of the character and made up a new one. I don't know the exact specifics of his build, but I think he went with Improved Shield Bash and enhanced Shield Spikes for his off-hand attacks.

The player also tested a Monk, and that didn't work out that well.

Generally, he player in question is very good at character optimisation. In our (overpowered, despite 25 point buy) Forgotten Realms 3.0 campaign, he played a mim-maxed Fighter/Paladin/Cleric/Hospitaler to great effect. (He got in trouble with the multiclassing XP penalties at around 16-18th level, but at that time, he already had created his personal Holy Avenger, and the group owned its own castle, and the campaign came to an end. It would probably not have mattered much, any way...) The only problem with the character was the homework required to optimize spell and special abilites selection.

 

[Jack Simth]

Ah, I forgot about animated shields. I generally ban them anyway. What if we assume the absence of an animated shield?

Then DR is still murder, the reduced probability of a hit more than counters the extra number of attacks (unless you've got lots of extra damage, such as with a Rogue attacking something in a situation where Sneak Attack applies or with a Ranger facing a favored enemy that's been boosted several times), situations where you only get one attack (such as Attacks of Opportunities or Charges) are painful (all the penalties, none of the benefits), and you're short quite a few feats to keep up.

 

[Quartz]

Then DR is still murder, the reduced probability of a hit more than counters the extra number of attacks

Ah, but with a shield, the character can opt to not attack with his shield and thereby remove the to-hit penalty. And while you only get 1x Str and 1x PA, your AC is significantly better. But is the AC better enough to compensate for the reduced damage?

 

[moritheil]

Ah, but with a shield, the character can opt to not attack with his shield and thereby remove the to-hit penalty. And while you only get 1x Str and 1x PA, your AC is significantly better. But is the AC better enough to compensate for the reduced damage?

That completely depends on what you're doing with that AC and what your needs are. I personally wouldn't place much value on shield AC unless you're mixing in the divine feat that improves your shield and the ability that makes it apply to touch AC.

In power builds, the shield is usually there to put things like fortification on, not for actual AC.

Overall, it's usually possible to boost AC to the point where another 5 or 6 AC makes little difference - most monsters can't hit you except on a 20, and those that can will have no trouble hitting you despite another 5 AC . . . so nerfing damage output is not something I would do for more AC.

 

[dontpunkme]

The only way TWF works IMHO is a scout X/ fighter 1/dervish X. The scout gets the benefit of his skirmish on all attacks he makes once he moves at least 10 feet and the dervish lets him make multiple attacks and still move. Plus dervish lets you treat scimitars as light weapons. However, against anything immune to crits or with a high DR you feel pretty worthless as you really can't inflict that much damage. Major downside is you end up feeling like a certain iconic drow ranger for wielding two scimitars.

 

[Darklone]

The only way TWF works IMHO is a scout X/ fighter 1/dervish X. The scout gets the benefit of his skirmish on all attacks he makes once he moves at least 10 feet and the dervish lets him make multiple attacks and still move. Plus dervish lets you treat scimitars as light weapons. However, against anything immune to crits or with a high DR you feel pretty worthless as you really can't inflict that much damage. Major downside is you end up feeling like a certain iconic drow ranger for wielding two scimitars.

Scout/Ranger with Swift Hunter and then dervish works much better. Better skirmish damage than scout/ftr1, better BAB and swift ranger spells for a lot of extra damage.

Scimitars as light weapons are actually bad because of Power Attack... Oversized TWF is better... yet that build needs soooo many feats.