Has lack of an insider account kept you from playing 4E?

[Falstaff]

I've had a situation in looking for a 4E group and I'm wondering how common it is.

I've been trying to get into some 4E games on and off for the past few months. Two local games match up with my schedule and I was invited to play. Two or three other games, I might be able to sit in on every once in a while. But the majority of the invitations to play were rescinded after the DMs learned that I don't have a D&D Insider account and that I'm not using the character builder.

I asked the DMs in question about the situation. The DM of the first game I could do regularly basically evaded my line of questioning and told me that I was required to have an Insider account to play in his campaign. The DM of the second game I could do regularly told me that he didn't want to worry about whether or not my character is up-to-date with the latest errata and whether or not I know about any rules updates--he apparently feels that I won't be able to keep up with rules updates unless I let the character builder do it for me. The other DMs had mixed reactions, ranging from surprise that I don't have an Insider account to passive-aggressive insinuations. Of the five different DMs, only one seemed reasonable about me not having an Insider account, and is still willing to let me play as our scheduling allows.

Is this sort of thing common?

Man, that sucks. Sorry to hear that.

I run 4th for my group (five of us) and not one of us has a DDI account or plan to get one. We're older gamers and the game has always been about pencils, paper, and dice and we want it to remain that way. I haven't been to Wizard's webpage in ages.

I hope you can find a group that doesn't require you to have an account. That blows.

 

[coyote6]

I'm curious about those using it to "check the math" etc. - what did you do for 3rd edition? 2nd? 1st? Pathfinder? How about if your group decided to play Hero or GURPS or M&M?

For 3e, I didn't check the math after the first couple of levels. Occasionally in play, the math would get checked because someone would get confused over what their total bonus was after all buffs, and we'd take a moment to work it out, and it would sometimes turn out they had wrong numbers on their sheet. I think every time, they were too low.

For the 3.5e game I'm playing in now, I am using Hero Lab, just because I have it and it makes it faster. If we switch to Pathfinder, I might buy the PF module for HL, or might just print some character sheets & write. But I like having soft copies, so I'd still look for some way to get a computerized version.

For GURPS, I made up a spreadsheet because I got tired of counting points & helping folks add things up. [Edit: note that we did a lot of Special Ops, cinematic martial arts, low-end supers, & the like; I have a GURPS PC that started at 300 pts & has 700+ xp. That's a lot of numbers. ]

For M&M, I playtest some times, and when I do, I usually end up double-checking the characters & archetypes -- so I got pretty good at adding up the numbers for M&M characters in my head, which was handy when looking at PCs. Now, though, I use Hero Lab, because it is easier. I also got in the habit of entering the players' PCs in HL, just so I could always have a copy handy when plotting their demise preparing for a session.

For Hero, I used to make up characters in high school classes, from memory, so I got pretty good at not needing any kind of aid (that carried over to GURPS, and then to M&M). Nowadays, if we were playing regularly, I'd probably go find a spreadsheet or look at a character builder, just to make it easier. I like having character sheets on computer, and if I'm going to go to that trouble, I might as well get it so the computer does the math, too.

It was a running joke for a while, pre-computerization -- I'd add up one guy's characters (first in Champions, then GURPS), and he'd always end up with points left over.

As GM, a computer tool is really handy; it speeds things up, and provides handy storage formats for opponents & other NPCs. I have a couple of Word documents full of dozens of 3e stat blocks of monsters & villains.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I can emphasize with the desire to have the books you bought usable in the game as I experienced that a lot in my former(and current) 3.5 days. I bought many books, but half the games I played in were core-only, and the rest might as well have been, as they allowed only a couple books. I don't think I ever saw an online game that allowed most/all books and lasted more than a month.

As a DM, I allowed a lot of books, but honestly, that way lies madness. More books leads to far more potential optimization and really increases the differences in characters between players who mine everything, and those who keep it simple.

In my 4E games, I currently allow everything that is non-FR, E, and Dragon and am somewhat uncomfortable with it, but I allow it. But allowing those three sources would vastly increase the amount of powers and such available. The game does not need access to all those sources, I think the sheer hoard of options already present in 4E is hurting the game already.

 

[Hardhead]

I can emphasize with the desire to have the books you bought usable in the game as I experienced that a lot in my former(and current) 3.5 days. I bought many books, but half the games I played in were core-only, and the rest might as well have been, as they allowed only a couple books. I don't think I ever saw an online game that allowed most/all books and lasted more than a month.

As a DM, I allowed a lot of books, but honestly, that way lies madness. More books leads to far more potential optimization and really increases the differences in characters between players who mine everything, and those who keep it simple.

In my 4E games, I currently allow everything that is non-FR, E, and Dragon and am somewhat uncomfortable with it, but I allow it. But allowing those three sources would vastly increase the amount of powers and such available. The game does not need access to all those sources, I think the sheer hoard of options already present in 4E is hurting the game already.

It's more doable in 4e than in previous editions, though. If you go to CharOp, look at the PPs that are so widely picked up. Daggermaster, Blood Mage, Pit Fighter... these are all base PHB paths. 4e has other issues, but power creep has, surprisingly, has not really been one of them.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

It's more doable in 4e than in previous editions, though. If you go to CharOp, look at the PPs that are so widely picked up. Daggermaster, Blood Mage, Pit Fighter... these are all base PHB paths. 4e has other issues, but power creep has, surprisingly, has not really been one of them.

Mostly true, but have you seen Draconic Spellcaster and Gnome Phantasmist? Power creep at its best!

 

[Lord_Blacksteel]

I totally agree with some of the posts above that discuss checking the math on PC's as a DM especially at the first few levels and especially in a new game system. Going back to the OP though, would you go so far as to require the CB to make that easier? I DM far more than I play and I can say that I wouldn't.

It seems to me it's either to ensure the player's don't gimp themselves - which I have never really seen as a long term problem, players will quickly figure out that something is wrong - or as a shield against powergaming/cheating and I'm not sure that this particular crime warrants that severe a requirement.

We managed to survive earlier editions of the game and many other games without requiring a computer adjudicator and just because a good tool exists for this game I don't see why it should be required. At that point the Cb is becoming a limiter, not an enabler, of goodfungametime.

Also, I'm all for more time playing less time not playing, but if a guy wants to play, has the books, has a clue and doesn't have the computer tool then why turn him away? I wouldn't even use that as an excuse if it was really another reason that was the reason for the turn-down. "We're full" makes a lot more sense than "you don't have the required software to run this app" for screening a guy out of your group. At least it does to me.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I can understand why DMs would want to use the DDI and have all character sheets generated through the Character Builder - it is an excellent resource. However, what's stopping the DMs from printing out your character?

In our group I have a DDI along with the 4e DM and another player. However, in our group, it is the DM's responsibility to look after and provide character sheets for player's in their game. [He also tracks coinage with that fantasy coinage in pouches which is a lot of fun to roleplay in game.]

Is it that rare for DMs to hold onto (and possibly produce) the character sheets for their players?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Shades of Green]

I haven't tried 4E yet for various reasons, with the main reason being that I'm quite happy with BFRPG as-is, even though reading through the test-drive 4E rules looked quite promising.

However, the fact that the default for playing 4E seems to be using a computer program to assist in chargen and levelling worries me as a potential future user; is the system so complex that computer assiatnace is recommended for its use?

 

[pemerton]

is the system so complex that computer assiatnace is recommended for its use?

I don't think so. The actual number of stats, and sources of bonuses/penalties to them, is not that big.

Where the system is complex is in the number of conditional modifiers (from feats, powers, class features etc). A good character sheet needs to have a way of recording all these. In my view, the character builder character sheet is actually not all that good at this.

But just to make it clear - this complexity isn't numer-crunching you'll want a computer to help with - rather it's organisation/layout that you'll want a graphic designer to help you with!

 

[Ourph]

However, the fact that the default for playing 4E seems to be using a computer program to assist in chargen and levelling worries me as a potential future user; is the system so complex that computer assiatnace is recommended for its use?

The main advantage of the Character Builder is that you get access to all the published character options without having to buy every book. The convenience of having the program allow, fast, easy, accurate character creation is secondary (but still very nice) to me. It is still quite easy to create a manage a character by hand if you want, just not AS easy as using the CB.