Has the Vancian Magic Thread Burned Down the Forest Yet? (My Bad, People)

[Nagol]

Ever play RIFTS?

Ever play HERO where someone builds their PC as a super-normal (IOW, highly trained & skilled, but with no one aspect outside of human boundaries)?

A long-running Champions campaign of mine had one of those: Neil Dufferin, retired super agent. Probably one of the most effective, pivotal characters in the campaign; certainly the de facto leader of the group once the nominal leader's ties to VIPER came out...

And we're not talking about a low-point gritty Champions campiagn either. Character were built on 400 Active Points to start and earned over 100 points in experience during play by the time the campaign retired.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

That's one of the biggest reasons I just don't like 4e. The 4e magic system feels extremely limited and very bland to me. I see absolutely nothing wrong with the Vancian system. The only time it's a problem is when I have a player who makes it a problem. And then, I don't blame the system, I blame the player.

I could be wrong as I am no 4E expert but what is magical about 4E magic? From the little I see they have taken away massive spellbooks and your ability to pick and choose. Now a wizard is no different than a fighter beyond the flavor text that says the wizard casts a spell and the fighter shoots an arrow.

 

[Diamond Cross]

Actually my friend who has read the 4e books claims 4e is not any longer a table top RPG but rather a MMORGP in disguise, which he personally believes that's why they changed the system so drastically.

I however, have not read the 4e books so I really couldn't say anything about them.

 

[MrGrenadine]

See, this just gives me flashbacks to pre-4e Shadowrun where everyone would go out for pizza while the GM had his hour and a half one-on-one session with the Decker.

It wasn't fun.

It wasn't fun for anyone.

Also, Magic-Users stopped being "guy who blows things up" long, long ago. They've been "Guy who has a spell for goddamn every single little thing" for awhile now. That's the problem with Vancian - you change your spells every morning. You can specialize in "being specialized in anything"

I'm sorry that poor DMs and GMs have sullied your experience in this regard.

Rest assured that some of us play in really fun campaigns where all characters have their moments to shine, run by DMs who manage the game well enough to keep Magic Users from being swiss army knives.

For one thing, you can't memorize the perfect spells in the morning if you have no idea what you're going to face in the afternoon.

Anyway, enjoy your game your way, but know that the alternative is a blast (pun intended) as well.

 

[Haltherrion]

Actually my friend who has read the 4e books claims 4e is not any longer a table top RPG but rather a MMORGP in disguise, which he personally believes that's why they changed the system so drastically.

I however, have not read the 4e books so I really couldn't say anything about them.

I think they had an eye on MMORGs when they designed the system...

 

[Dice4Hire]

Changing the thread title this late is not cool.

 

[Lanefan]

Changing the thread title this late is not cool.

Particularly as doing so takes the "read" flag off thus it shows as unread; the only reason I realized it was the same thread was the titles list appeared to show I'd posted in this thread yet had never read it...which is a pretty neat trick if you can pull it off.

Lan-"I'd better memorize Stealth Post again tomorrow"-efan

 

[Celtavian]

re

I'm on record as being a fairly strong supporter of the 3.x / Pathfinder rules.

But more and more I'm coming to believe that if there's one thing 4e did right, it was ditching Vancian magic.

The longer I look at it, delve into various RPG rules structures, and see alternative magic systems, the more I feel such utter disdain and contempt for bog standard Vancian casting.

From a narrativist standpoint it's such an utterly contrived mechanic. I know that most of the time when we're playing in-game we don't think about it, but how much of the entire D&D ecology and its "normative features" are based on the basic features of Vancian casting? I realize its original inclusion in OD&D is due to a preference for it by one E. Gary Gygax, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that other than D&D and the original Jack Vance writings, there really are no other sources that use it.

And the reason for that is that it simply doesn't feel organic to the way most other fictionists have perceived magic to work. I can't think of a single fantasy author, other than those writing for the old TSR-based campaign settings, use anything that even remotely approaches it.

But, I would be willing to forgive Vancian magic's inability to feel internally organic or narratively consistent, if it added something to the ability to more effectively play the D&D game, but it's pretty well proven that in its most recent iterations (the 3.5 / Pathfinder rules) it continues to be the most potentially unbalancing aspect of the game. And the reason for that is that the level of character investment to increase your abilities to leverage the Vancian mechanic is relatively small.

Having been playing with Savage Worlds for a bit, I don't necessarily like everything about the system, but the one thing I do like is that if you choose to play a "caster" style character, the rule system basically forces you to invest very heavily to make that an integral part of your character. You've got to invest the Edges, the skill and the attribute allocations to make it a long-term viable character concept. If you just want to be a dabbler, great--but if you want to begin to even approach the the level 10 wizard in D&D 3.5, you've got to commit full-out to it, and you've got to sacrifice other elements of your character.

And ultimately there's just so much freedom in basically being able to say, "I don't have to follow that Sacred Cow down to the muddy river any more."

When Pathfinder 2 comes out sometime between 2015 and 2020, I really, really, really hope that Vancian magic is at the very least re-evaluated, but secretly I'd love it if the amazing Lords and Ladies of Paizo created something far more organic, interesting, balanced, and fresh to put in its place.

(Update edit: Vancian magic per se isn't bad--but "bog standard" implementations are simply starting to feel stale, and there's lots of ways to make it more nuanced--thanks to Dungeoneer for coming up with the word I was looking for downthread. And may I suggest checking out the "Magical Tropes and Rules You Enjoy" thread for the type of discussion I think I was originally trying to create. Mea Culpa!).

Vancian Magic is why I have gravitated more towards the sorcerer and spontaneous caster classes. Those classes seem to use magic more like standard fiction wizards than Vancian wizards.

I would love to see Paizo fashion a different magic system. Equally as potent, but different mechanically. I don't want that watery 4E garbage magic system or anything close. But I would like something more of what you see in fiction while at the same time still capturing the high fantasy and versatile magic of D&D.

But I would prefer they do something along the lines of what they've done with the sorcerer, summoner, witch, and the like where arcane casters are very focused on specialized areas of magic. Very few wizards in fiction are generalists, in fact none I know of. Most wizards have some area of arcane lore they specialize in. Even Gandalf was focused on fire magic and lore.

I would love to see the magic system built around types of arcane casters rather than generalist, do everything arcane casters.

But I will reiterate that I don't want any watery soup 4E type of system. That magic system is what drove me away from D&D it was so unbelievably unimaginative and underpowered. Made arcane casters seem like sad little chump shadows of their former selves. I don't want that in Pathfinder.

Wizards aka arcane casters should always be fearsomely powerful beings wielding arcane power that strikes fear in the heart. That is a hallmark of fantasy whether it be mythology or standard fantasy fiction. Heck, even historically those that were thought to have wizardly type powers like witches and warlocks were greatly feared. That part should always be a part of any arcane caster. It shouldn't be solely a role-play mechanic like it is in 4E, it should be an inherent part of the class. If you come after a wielder of arcane power, you better bring friends and come prepared or you are most likely going to end up dead if you aren't another wielder of arcane power.

That is how fantasy should be.

 

[Runestar]

The solution is simple - we should go back to 2e and bring back the netherese arcanist.

Basically, they used the spell point system, learnt spells as a wizard, and could cast any spell they knew spontaneously.

Now, we get the best of all worlds. No need to differentiate between wizard, sorc and psion.

Yep, they were so broken that even the goddess of magic had to personally step in to put a stop to this nonsense.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But I would like something more of what you see in fiction while at the same time still capturing the high fantasy and versatile magic of D&D.

As pointed out in many threads, "what you see in fiction" is as vague as it gets.

First if all, Vancian magic arises from a work of fiction, so it actually satisfies your plea.

Second, there are nearly as many different "magic systems" as writers. A writer doesn't necessarily have a coherent concept of magic when they sit down to write a work of fiction. Some do, but for others, it's just a deus ex machina.

And some of those mythological/literary magic systems REALLY wouldn't work well for RPGs. A true mana system- as depicted in Niven's "The Magic Goes Away" cycle of stories (based on RW faith traditions & legends of "mana") would be quite unsatisfying for most gamers because mana to power spells is not a personal resource in any great amount- it must be gathered to the caster from his surroundings. And when it is depleted, it is does not replenish for generations. (Amazingly, some of that feel was well captured in the original Dark Sun setting's mechanic for Defiler magic.)

So, when you talk about literary magic, 1) don't dismiss Vancian, because it IS literary in origin, and 2) be specific about whose literary magic you prefer.