Has the wave crested? (Bo9S)

[TarionzCousin]

I really wish we had Half-Priced Books in Canada. While I was in Texas earlier this year on a trip, I stopped into one and bought DLCS for 13 bucks - an absolute steal!--N

It's all part of the Grand Scheme to Keep Canada from Taking Over. I would tell you more about it, but there's someone knocking on my door. Hold on a m--"

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I don't remember these cut scenes you're talking about, where Final Fantasy characters are fighting like normal people with little or no magic at their disposal.... Then again, I haven't played any of the FF games for the past year or two, except for some FFVII and FFIX a few months ago, so I may just be forgetting.

Squall vs. Seifer in the FF8 opening (a level 1 Fire is used in the fight, but it's mostly swords), the battle of the Gardens in FF8, Auron's reintroduction to the party in FF10, the battle of Nalbina in FF12, the Resistance attack on the palace in FF12... I'm specificially talking about CGI-only; there are a lot more in-game cut scenes that would back this up.

Also, it seems odd that you'd consider FF lower-magic than D&D.... FF games often include magic-powered technology, magic crystals or other items that are fairly significant in numbers (...even North Corel in FF7 had some guy trying to sell a bit of materia, right? And Corel was dirt-poor), absurdly abundant populations of monsters running amuck in the wilderness.......and people who can fight such monsters and even mecha, using their own combat skills and a bit of magic.

I think D&D and the Book of Nine Swords pretty well compare to the level of magic in many Final Fantasy games.

In FF4, one of the most powerful mages in the world (Tellah) can't cast the equivalent of an 8th or 9th level spell without draining his own life force. The likes of Raistlin, Elminster or Mordenkainen, a Dark Lord of Ravenloft or a Dark Sun Dragon King could toss a meteo-equivalent spell at least a couple of times a day. Even at their highest levels, the PCs still require an airship to cross long distances (between a planet and a moon, for example), whereas mid- to high-level D&D PCs could easily teleport such a distance. Resurrection is impossible. Gods are non-interactive, if they exist at all.

In FF6, magic hasn't been seen for centuries, and when it does appear in relatively limited amounts in the form of early magitech armor, it's the ultimate military trump card. As far as we know, only the people of Thamasa (most of whom would be, at best, 1st or 2nd level Sorcerers), Terra (who has a powerful inherited template), Celes and Kefka (who have a acquired template) can cast spells innately, and their ability to do so is stunning to other people. PCs never acquire the ability to teleport. Resurrection is impossible. Such gods as exist are much less powerful and active, requiring their combined power to work planet-scale magic.

In FF7, magic does permeate the world, magic is used as a power source, and low-level magic is widely available. All of this appears to be fairly recent, however; twenty years before the start of the game, the magic in the world would basically have been accessible only to the vanishingly small number of Cetra. Also, high-level magic is extremely rare. Sephiroth seems to have a full suite of high-level magic, but is literally the only character who does. Resurrection is impossible. Gods are non-interactive, if they exist at all; if you count Planet, it remains basically non-interactive, and like Meteor can only be controlled by a single artifact. Perhaps approaching D&D level, but with wide magic rather than high magic; I can see Eberron as being at this magic level, albeit in a different way.

In FF8, humans have no innate magical abilities whatsoever, and can only use magic at all by drawing on extremely dangerous outside entities (GFs). The ability to use magic innately is restricted to only Rinoa, Edea, Adel and Ultimecia and is a source of terrifying, plot-vital power. The two great empires of the world, Esthar and Galbadia, are purely technological. Technology appears to run off normal means rather than magical means. Teleportation and resurrection are impossible. Gods are non-interactive, if they exist at all.

In FF9, moderate magic is known and accessible, and at least one country has an Epic or near-Epic magical trump card protecting its capital. However, fielding a magical military force, even a fairly weak one (not above 4th level Sorcerers, I'd guess) allows one country to assume complete imperial power over a continent. Teleportation and resurrection are impossible. Gods are non-interactive, if they exist at all.

In FF10, moderate- to high-magic is known and accessible. If there is one FF setting on par with D&D, it's FF10, since the summoners, who use extremely powerful magic to fight a colossal and obviously magical creature, are an integral part of the culture, and other magical training is apparently available. Even so, teleportation and resurrection are impossible, and gods are non-interactive, if they exist at all. Probably about as high magic as Dragonlance, Greyhawk or Ravenloft, less than Dark Sun or Forgotten Realms.

In FF12, magic is used to power technology, but the technology itself is not explicitly magical. Large scale combat appears to be largely magic-free, except when filtered through technology. Teleportation is available via items, though not to any individual. Resurrection is impossible, and gods are weak enough to be challenged by their creations or ordinary mortals who have duplicated their powers. Personal power is much, much reduced from D&D levels - Vayne, probably the highest-level character, is a non-magical martial artist and strategist without the use of Nethicite - but the relatively large number of powerful artifacts drags it up to perhaps Greyhawk or Ravenloft levels.

 

[hong]

A lot of other high-powered settings could be handled in D&D as having 20th level characters, but only 8th level spellcasters.

 

[Piratecat]

In FF4...

That's an excellent summary. Thanks!

 

[Doug McCrae]

I've already accepted the fact that when 3E began, WotC would be taking the more japanime/comic book approach to D&D.

Heck, Eberron has that graphic novel approach to it and it's working wonders for that setting.

I see Eberron as being subject to almost every adventure fiction influence apart from japanime.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

That's an excellent summary. Thanks!

Most welcome!

However, I think hong...

A lot of other high-powered settings could be handled in D&D as having 20th level characters, but only 8th level spellcasters.

... summarized most of the FFs, and frankly almost all JRPG settings, even better.

 

[WizarDru]

I'm just curious....does the need to split an adamantine wall in twain occur that often in some folks games?

 

[hong]

I'm just curious....does the need to split an adamantine wall in twain occur that often in some folks games?

We were doing it quite a lot in Dragotha's fortress in AOW. Well, not adamantine walls, but doors covered in worms that tried to eat the brains of those who came too close.

 

[Henry]

I'm just curious....does the need to split an adamantine wall in twain occur that often in some folks games?

Probably not - but dungeons become really fun when you decide that you can go in ANY direction you want to, not just where the halls take you.

 

[pawsplay]

I'm not that concerned with high level fighters hewing through iron walls, particularly if they're wielding magical weapons, magically strong, enlarged, etc. That's quite a bit different than someone going "kiai!" and chopping a a frickin' adamantine wall in frickin' half with a battle axe looted off a dead derro. I'd at least like to see more than one chop.

Not a monk hater. Not an Eastern influence hater... I've had shugenja in my games, and have used a disguised ogre mage as a villain.

I am familiar with wire fu... not only am I well versed in crouching tigers, hidden dragons, and flying knives, but I used to watch an hour of Kung Theater every Sunday as a kid, I've read substantial amounts of martial arts history and myth, and I've read stories about Krsna killing people by throwing a chariot wheel. I'm actually quite a kung fu afficiando.

However, that is not what I'm looking for from my D&D. The system does not support the style well without substantial modification... right off the bat, the relationship between BAB and naked defenses is backwards from the wuxia genre. When I started playing, I was engrossed by Elmore's art, by the history of the crusades, by various species of polearms, and so forth. Although formidable, and even superheroic, such as Conan's strength, Beowulf's bravery, Grey Mouser's agility, and Lancelot's prowess... such characters stretch but do not break the laws of reality. They are individuals of flesh and bone.

When a warrior balances on the end of a blade of grass and kicks someone's head off, that's not agility, that's enlightenment.

The D&D monk is not a wuxia character. He is closest to the protagonist of Kung Fu (starring David Carradine), a character with formidable skills who occasionally finds himself outgunned in terms of sheer firepower. Most of the monk's abilities are visually believable. At higher levels, they acquire a few miraculous abilities, mainly related to fighting monsters. The more esoteric abilities of very high level monks are those of many martial arts legends... not necessarily wuxia, with its wire-flying combat. A D&D monk is not likely to perform any physical feats beyond what an Erol Flynn character or Batman is capable of. The monk is capable of feats of mind over matter, but is no match even for a cinematic Jedi, much less Beatrix from Kill Bill.