Has the wave crested? (Bo9S)

[GreatLemur]

I too think imploding is exaggerating; sorry, gamer message boards have made me loathe the words "hyperbole/hyperbolic", but I do think the D&D magic system could do with a bit of a facelift.

Yeah, I think it's gotta mean something when the House Rules forum gets even more "Check out my new magic system!" posts than "Check out my new cat-people race!" posts, when half the D&D campaign settings released by third-party developers have a new magic system, when D&D's main customer crossover opportunity--MMORPGs--are universally designed for far less downtime, when I still ain't comfortable with Vancian magic after all these goddamned years . . . yeah, you get the picture.

I definitely like that we've got a mix of different subsystem with different balancing paradigms, these days. It's just that there are a whole lot of compelling reasons not to keep the old "per day" paradigm as the standard.

 

[WhatGravitas]

...when I still ain't comfortable with Vancian magic after all these goddamned years . . . yeah, you get the picture.

It's really strange. Magic systems are the ultimate house ruling-thing. I wonder if there is somewhere such a "Holy Grail of Game Design", a magic system, that works, is easy, usable on the fly, and reflects the average magic in many novels... Guess not.

 

[Nifft]

Yeah, I think it's gotta mean something when the House Rules forum gets even more "Check out my new magic system!" posts than "Check out my new cat-people race!" posts

Let's be honest here: the Cat People wave crested in 2003.

-- N

PS: Magic is really what makes a fantasy game fantasy. It's also one of the few game elements for which there is no real-world analogue.

 

[Henry]

PS: Magic is really what makes a fantasy game fantasy. It's also one of the few game elements for which there is no real-world analogue.

And that's the thing: There IS no standard way to depict magic in fantasy; every fantasy handles magic and its character differently. It's how we got Vance in the first place; he was one of the few that actually detailed how magic worked enough for Gary to riff off of.

 

[jolt]

PS: Magic is really what makes a fantasy game fantasy. It's also one of the few game elements for which there is no real-world analogue.

And this is why, IMO, there will be complaints no matter what "model" you use for your magic system. And even if all the changes presented here happen, magic will still be the most house-ruled aspect fo the game. In the end, many of the people who aren't currently happy will be and many who are currently happy, won't be. All this changes is who's happy and who isn't; the overall result is still pretty much the same.

jolt

 

[GlassJaw]

It's really strange. Magic systems are the ultimate house ruling-thing. I wonder if there is somewhere such a "Holy Grail of Game Design", a magic system, that works, is easy, usable on the fly, and reflects the average magic in many novels... Guess not.

I've struggled with this as well, and my answer is no. There are just too may campaign and setting-specific variables.

 

[GreatLemur]

It's really strange. Magic systems are the ultimate house ruling-thing. I wonder if there is somewhere such a "Holy Grail of Game Design", a magic system, that works, is easy, usable on the fly, and reflects the average magic in many novels... Guess not.

I wouldn't really say novels are the best thing to emulate, here. I won't bother to repeat the narrative-entertainment-vs.-interactive-entertainment comparison, because I think most of us already know that one. But even aside from that, magic in fantasy novels--okay, the ones I've read, anyway, and I have to admit that's not an impressive list--usually seems a little bit more scarce than what I'd want in an RPG. Depends on the book, though, of course. Oddly, I kinda think the only novels with magic systems worth emulating in an RPG would be the ones that might have been strongly RPG-influenced, themselves. I'd rather play a game with magic based on the Black Company books than on Tolkien's work, for example. (And, indeed, Green Ronin's Black Company campaign setting has a really nice magic system.)

Let's be honest here: the Cat People wave crested in 2003.

Lucky me: I only registered in 2005, and I've still seen too many of them.

I've struggled with this as well, and my answer is no. There are just too may campaign and setting-specific variables.

This is extremely, inevitably true. Personally, I like magic to be about the pseudoscientifically-believable manipulation of exotic, possibly extradimensional energies through training and will. Other folks like it to be about the classical four elements, or pacts with spirtual entities, or the true names of things, or cauldrons full of newt eyes.

The only kind of magic system that could support everybody's wildly-different flavor preferences would be one that's extremely generic, flexible, and modular, more of a meta-system than anything else. And I'd dig that. But I know damn well it would scare off more people than it would bring in.

 

[Andor]

The only kind of magic system that could support everybody's wildly-different flavor preferences would be one that's extremely generic, flexible, and modular, more of a meta-system than anything else. And I'd dig that. But I know damn well it would scare off more people than it would bring in.

Yup. It's called the HERO system, and it does indeed scare many people off.

 

[Psion]

Yup. It's called the HERO system, and it does indeed scare many people off.

Heh... at a time when I had become dissatisfied with the AD&D 2e game, I converted my game to Fantasy Hero. With a few tweaks and customized magic systems, I had it purring like a kitten and preserved the feel of my setting all in the same stroke.

But the thing I noticed that was some players (namely, the business majors and non-college students) never played mages anymore, because they were to intimidated by the nature of the power system, which you sort of had to court if you wanted to use magic under HERO.

I think that's when I began to realize that the Vancian-style system wasn't so bad. In many ways, it was very clever and very well suited for gaming. Most people never realize it, though, because it has always been there for most gamers.

 

[Brazeku]

That thing about certain spells only going off at certain times of day?

That is freakin' AWESOME. The implications on a campaign world are extensive. If you set it up that way in D&D, though, you'd probably have to drop the level of the limited spells, and then introduce higher level versions that ignore the restriction. Say, you could have a 3rd level teleport spell that functions once per day at midnight or sundown or whatever, and then maybe an 8th level one that works whenever.

Think of the impact of teleporting deep into enemy territory, and then not having an easy escape for a day- having to hold off enemies until you can cast your spell again. And they'd be aware of it, too, so it would just become more and more tense.

Quality gaming.