Has the wave crested? (Bo9S)

[Arkhandus]

Also: I think it's being forgotten that the wierd time restrictions and such being suggested for spells like Teleport are, essentially, the same as advocating a uses-per-day mechanic, just with a much wonkier and more arbitrary measurement/limitation.

So in essence, those arguing for that aren't really arguing for the 'per-encounter' balance paradigm, not exactly. They're generally arguing for a mix of balancing elements, as I am, but arguing over it with me and others anyway for no particular reason.

At least per-day stuff can be justified somewhat in game (or per-eight-hours, or whatever). A magic-user may not have the energy to do this or that all day, and the movements of the heavens just might matter in some settings, to where it actually could have some effect on someone's use of particular abilities. At least potentially. But I really dislike wierd, random limitations on this stuff, it's just an added burden when a simpler mechanic will do just fine.

Summoning rituals and suchlike make sense from the point of view of some material that D&D draws from, but they're not exactly indicative of all the other kinds of magic-use the game mimics from other sources. Most stuff shouldn't be limited by really unusual matters unless you're going for more of an occult feel for your game, which would be a matter of sheer personal preference rather than objectivity in game design.



Anyway, I'm done. I'm not gonna waste more time trying to argue for moderation or open-mindedness. I mean obviously, variety is badwrong, duh!! :\

 

[FireLance]

That's silly. And absurdly arbitrary. Do a lot of really wierd, arbitrary, corner-case limitations have to be put in place to achieve some small semblance of balance with a per-encounter system?

To be fair, the person who came up with that house rule probably had problems with teleport even on a per day basis, so it's not a problem that would arise simply because of a per encounter mechanic.

What about Dimension Door then, or other such spells? Dim Door is primarily a 'get outta monster's reach' spell, yet if you could do it at will, you'd have no trouble crossing the globe in a rather short time with it. If it gets changed to have a more limited distance, it will still be pretty effective. If it gets changed to a longer casting time or something, it loses its primary purpose.

Note that per encounter does not necessarily mean at will. A recharge time of, say, a minute means that a 10th-level wizard, who could move about 800 ft. per casting of this spell, travels at a little less than 10 miles per hour. That's hardly globe-crossing speed.

Having only one copy of a spell active at any given time would really suck for some spells, too. 'Sorry, my wizard can't give the whole party Water Breathing so we can actually have an adventure in that shipwreck at the bottom of the lake, I can only maintain one at a time, and I'm not nearly high enough to cast a Mass Water Breathing, and it'd be pretty dangerous for just one of us to go down there alone.' Or 'Sorry, we can't all Fly across the gaping maw of the abyss, so I'll have to leave all you mundanes behind.' Or 'Well, I can't Mind Blank the entire party, so we better be on our toes 24/7, cuz that lich we couldn't stop last time is gonna Scry us and teleport in some kind of death squad at some point in the future, and probably come himself to Dominate one of you, since I can only keep myself protected against Scrying and Enchantments.' Etc.

I'll address the main point raised instead of just pointing out that water breathing can be cast on multiple targets, but the duration is reduced proportionately. Some DMs might actually like the fact that not every PC can have the same defences and abilities, or that multiple copies of a single spell could remove the challenge posed by an obstacle for the entire party. I think someone mentioned a point upthread about dramatic tension...

I really, really just don't think going full-bore "per encounter" for balancing in D&D is a good idea. You'd have to totally rework the entire dang system and then everyone would have to wrap their brains around all the complicated new mechanics, whether they like them or not. And da%$it, I want wizards nuking stuff with Meteor Swarms! Not some nerfed, mangled mini-meteor cluster 'because it would be unfair to the warblade if wizards could do as much or more damage, and to a much larger area at once'. Per-day balancing works well for some stuff, dangit, and at least it makes some sense, unlike some of the other balancing methods.

Everything in moderation, y'know?

Exactly. I was under the impression that the discussion was whether the game should be primarily balanced on a per encounter basis or a per day basis, and not whether it should be exclusively balanced on a per encounter basis or a per day basis. I personally am in favor of primarily per encounter balance because it's easier to convert from per encounter balance to per day balance if you want to do so.

After all this discussion, however, I'm starting to see what could be another advantage to per encounter balancing. Characters should have less resources to juggle (three spells instead of twelve, for example) and this could make the game easier for novice players. Once they have become more experienced they can convert to a per day balancing model if they find that the additional complexity adds to their game.

 

[FireLance]

Anyway, I'm done. I'm not gonna waste more time trying to argue for moderation or open-mindedness. I mean obviously, variety is badwrong, duh!! :\

No, variety is generally good, so mechanics that are are inherently able to handle variety better are generally superior. That is why per encounter mechanics are generally better than per day mechanics, because it is relatively simple to convert from per encounter to per day.

 

[Arkhandus]

Sure, let's throw all reason out the window and fight each other unarmed in the arena of logic, to semi-quote 8-Bit Theater. :\

Real nice taking things to the extreme and mixing up everything I say to make it seem like I'm an idiot, guys. Real mature of ya. Thanks for reminding me again that the Universe hates me just because.

I just had to post this because by the time my previous response posted, there were already a few people building straw men and non sequitors with my posts.

/me abandons the hopeless cause of moderation

 

[Nifft]

Sure, let's throw all reason out the window and fight each other unarmed in the arena of logic, to semi-quote 8-Bit Theater. :\

Real nice taking things to the extreme and mixing up everything I say to make it seem like I'm an idiot, guys. Real mature of ya. Thanks for reminding me again that the Universe hates me just because.

I just had to post this because by the time my previous response posted, there were already a few people building straw men and non sequitors with my posts.

/me abandons the hopeless cause of moderation

Uh... can we get back to non-personal? Just because people refuse to accept your self-characterization -- like your claim to be the voice of moderation -- it's still not an attack on you. Well, no more than implicitly claiming others are immoderate is an attack on them. And it wasn't, right?

Cheers, -- N

 

[DreadArchon]

Somehow, I suspect most players have better things to do with their characters than go on dim-dooring tours of the countryside.

Clearly you've never played a game with someone who had a Blink Dog cohort.

("Okay, so if we cast Expeditious Retreat on him, and he does a full run action every turn, and he does a max-range D-Door every turn, how long will it take him to cross what should be a three-day carriage ride? Will he get there before tiring or running out of Expeditious Retreat?" Yeah, good thing math is my best subject. This crap comes up virtually every session. Had a battle once where the dog was doing tactical aerial combat by controlling his fall speed via Blink activation and deactivation, D-Dooring back into the fight every round. It got really hairy when he had to start "treading air" while the party discussed how to get him down without all of his built-up momentum bringing him crashing into the ground... I declared that he could simply teleport into the ground and take damage from the shunting but suffer no ill effects due to momentum, which stretches the rules a bit but let us go on with the game.)

 

[Sejs]

... I can't think of any common examples of teleportation in movies, games or books. Well, unless you mean those derived from D&D, and even those usually impose big limits on what you can do with teleport (no bamfing direct to the BBEG's bathroom, for instance).

I can think of only a few examples, and for the most part they share restrictions such as...

- Can only teleport to somewhere the caster has been before. Unless the BBEG let you in to use the restroom at one point, no 'porting in and ganking him while he's in the tub. Not even line of sight is sufficient, you have to have personally experienced the space in question.

- Can only teleport to one specifically pre-designated point at a time. You mark or bind the area, then you can go back there. Makes teleporting much more a defensive action, rarely offensive outside of the occasional elaborate ambush.

- Can only teleport to a significant location. Ley line nexus, teleport point, mystic gateway, etc. Sometimes teleportation is even restricted further in that you can only leave from one of these locations, as well.

 

[SteveC]

You know, I just have to jump in here to point out that restrictions on the time of day that certain spells can be cast, especially teleport, sounds like a very interesting campaign idea.

With the right window dressing, this could make for a very cool campaign. Perhaps a campaign that has a sort of dimension lock put on it, that weakens at certain points in the solar or lunar cycle. Could be fun. Not a default sort of game, mind you, but still fun. But then I tend to not be one for the vanilla in my gaming anymore...

--Steve

 

[Someone]

And it'd be terribly setting-specific in its nature; it doesn't make sense that it would be that way universally, in every world, just because. Especially since in D&D, the Astral Plane is always there, always timeless. The Astral Plane don't care what time it is on Random Unimportant Measly Material Plane #12537817369137460417361013.

Not only is the Astral plane terribly setting specific: the whole Vancian magic is terribly setting specific. It appears only in one author's books; D&D would be closer to the vast majority of other fantasy settings by a recharging mana / per encounter magic system.

 

[Sejs]

You know, I just have to jump in here to point out that restrictions on the time of day that certain spells can be cast, especially teleport, sounds like a very interesting campaign idea.

With the right window dressing, this could make for a very cool campaign. Perhaps a campaign that has a sort of dimension lock put on it, that weakens at certain points in the solar or lunar cycle. Could be fun. Not a default sort of game, mind you, but still fun. But then I tend to not be one for the vanilla in my gaming anymore...

Link it to stellar conjunctions and heavenly bodies.

Classic magical flavor right there.