Has the wave crested? (Bo9S)

[Nifft]

Or restrict *when* the spells can be cast. I recall someone mentioned a house rule that all teleports resolved at midnight, so that was when all guards were on full alert and all important people made sure their basic defences were active. Similarly, it might only be possible to cast resurrection at dawn, or animate dead at twilight.

That's brilliant.

Reminds me of the restrictions on Exalted's demon-summoning spells. Least demons could be bound at midnight, middle demons could be bound on the midnight of the new moon, and greater demons could be bound only on midnight of the new year. (Thus the new year's eve party -- so mages could keep an eye on each other. )

Cheers, -- N

 

[Arkhandus]

I recall someone mentioned a house rule that all teleports resolved at midnight

That's silly. And absurdly arbitrary. Do a lot of really wierd, arbitrary, corner-case limitations have to be put in place to achieve some small semblance of balance with a per-encounter system?

What about Dimension Door then, or other such spells? Dim Door is primarily a 'get outta monster's reach' spell, yet if you could do it at will, you'd have no trouble crossing the globe in a rather short time with it. If it gets changed to have a more limited distance, it will still be pretty effective. If it gets changed to a longer casting time or something, it loses its primary purpose.

Having only one copy of a spell active at any given time would really suck for some spells, too. 'Sorry, my wizard can't give the whole party Water Breathing so we can actually have an adventure in that shipwreck at the bottom of the lake, I can only maintain one at a time, and I'm not nearly high enough to cast a Mass Water Breathing, and it'd be pretty dangerous for just one of us to go down there alone.' Or 'Sorry, we can't all Fly across the gaping maw of the abyss, so I'll have to leave all you mundanes behind.' Or 'Well, I can't Mind Blank the entire party, so we better be on our toes 24/7, cuz that lich we couldn't stop last time is gonna Scry us and teleport in some kind of death squad at some point in the future, and probably come himself to Dominate one of you, since I can only keep myself protected against Scrying and Enchantments.' Etc.


I really, really just don't think going full-bore "per encounter" for balancing in D&D is a good idea. You'd have to totally rework the entire dang system and then everyone would have to wrap their brains around all the complicated new mechanics, whether they like them or not. And da%$it, I want wizards nuking stuff with Meteor Swarms! Not some nerfed, mangled mini-meteor cluster 'because it would be unfair to the warblade if wizards could do as much or more damage, and to a much larger area at once'. Per-day balancing works well for some stuff, dangit, and at least it makes some sense, unlike some of the other balancing methods.

Everything in moderation, y'know?

 

[hong]

That's silly. And absurdly arbitrary.

What, like using bat guano to create balls of fire isn't arbitrary?

What about Dimension Door then, or other such spells? Dim Door is primarily a 'get outta monster's reach' spell, yet if you could do it at will, you'd have no trouble crossing the globe in a rather short time with it.

Somehow, I suspect most players have better things to do with their characters than go on dim-dooring tours of the countryside.

 

[mmu1]

That's silly. And absurdly arbitrary. Do a lot of really wierd, arbitrary, corner-case limitations have to be put in place to achieve some small semblance of balance with a per-encounter system?

I don't know... It's not that much of a stretch to say that, once per day and once per day only, the natural forces of the universe align in such a way that it is possible to use magic to teleport from one place to another. It could make for an interesting campaign background.

Althought to be honest, I don't think it's the sort of thing I'd want to see for a "default" setting.

 

[shilsen]

Hell, you could still have plot-device magic like gate, resurrection and whatnot: just make it take longer than a standard action to cast. Changing teleport to an hour and true res to 12 hours casting time, for instance, pretty much takes them out of the realm of per-encounter _and_ per-day balancing.

Or restrict *when* the spells can be cast. I recall someone mentioned a house rule that all teleports resolved at midnight, so that was when all guards were on full alert and all important people made sure their basic defences were active. Similarly, it might only be possible to cast resurrection at dawn, or animate dead at twilight.

IMNSHO, both of the above are damn fine ideas even outside the whole question of "per encounter" and "per day" balancing of spells. Adds some nice flavor and also minimizes/removes a number of the mechanical issues some people have with higher level magic, such as the scry-teleport-and-fry approach.

 

[Arkhandus]

I don't know... It's not that much of a stretch to say that, once per day and once per day only, the natural forces of the universe align in such a way that it is possible to use magic to teleport from one place to another. It could make for an interesting campaign background.

Althought to be honest, I don't think it's the sort of thing I'd want to see for a "default" setting.

Except it's stupid and doesn't fit any of the common examples of teleportation or other such things in movies, games, or books. It'd be incredibly lame to be restricted to teleportation once per day, especially as a mighty archmage. And it'd be terribly setting-specific in its nature; it doesn't make sense that it would be that way universally, in every world, just because. Especially since in D&D, the Astral Plane is always there, always timeless. The Astral Plane don't care what time it is on Random Unimportant Measly Material Plane #12537817369137460417361013.

It's a silly, unnecessary, and unnecessarily limiting rule. It may fit into some wierd, quasi-low-magic campaign setting, but that would not be standard D&D.

 

[Arkhandus]

What, like using bat guano to create balls of fire isn't arbitrary?

It's completely inconsequential and just a minor detail. It doesn't affect the big picture or a typical adventuring wizard's activities one bit. Not real hard to find a cave with bat guano out in the wilderness, anyway, they live in big screeching hordes that rise from the cave like a black or brown cloud of fuzzy, winged rodents at sunset, don't they? It's not going to mess with the game to remove that material component or to insist that the wizard pick up some fresh bat guano (ick) from the wizardly reagents shop every week. Or just, y'know, get a bat familiar for an infinite supply.

Somehow, I suspect most players have better things to do with their characters than go on dim-dooring tours of the countryside.

But when you can't Teleport yet, it's still a good means to getting in and out of situations or getting through a dangerous area relatively safely. And if they can Dimension Door at will, why don't they use it most of the time rather than Teleport or ships or horses for travel? It'd certainly be easier and cheaper, right? And if Teleport takes 12 hours to cast, you can probably cover much more ground in the same amount of time by casting Dimension Door every 10 seconds or so. Or whatever.

 

[hong]

Except it's stupid and doesn't fit any of the common examples of teleportation or other such things in movies, games, or books.

... I can't think of any common examples of teleportation in movies, games or books. Well, unless you mean those derived from D&D, and even those usually impose big limits on what you can do with teleport (no bamfing direct to the BBEG's bathroom, for instance).

It'd be incredibly lame to be restricted to teleportation once per day, especially as a mighty archmage.

Why do people keep coming up with this "it's magic therefore I can do anything" argument? Even a mighty archmage can only cast 1-4 9th level spells per day.

And it'd be terribly setting-specific in its nature; it doesn't make sense that it would be that way universally, in every world, just because.

But it _would_ make sense for every world to require fireballs to use bat guano? Or for every world to require 25000 gp of diamonds to cast true res? Or for every world to have such a thing as Quicken Spell?

It's a silly, unnecessary, and unnecessarily limiting rule. It may fit into some wierd, quasi-low-magic campaign setting, but that would not be standard D&D.

First you want magic that's limited per day. Now you want no limits on magic. Sheesh.

 

[hong]

It's completely inconsequential and just a minor detail. It doesn't affect the big picture or a typical adventuring wizard's activities one bit.

Arbitrariness has nothing to do with practicality.

Not real hard to find a cave with bat guano out in the wilderness, anyway, they live in big screeching hordes that rise from the cave like a black or brown cloud of fuzzy, winged rodents at sunset, don't they? It's not going to mess with the game to remove that material component or to insist that the wizard pick up some fresh bat guano (ick) from the wizardly reagents shop every week. Or just, y'know, get a bat familiar for an infinite supply.

So using 25000 gp of diamonds to cast true res isn't arbitrary?

But when you can't Teleport yet, it's still a good means to getting in and out of situations or getting through a dangerous area relatively safely. And if they can Dimension Door at will, why don't they use it most of the time rather than Teleport or ships or horses for travel? It'd certainly be easier and cheaper, right? And if Teleport takes 12 hours to cast, you can probably cover much more ground in the same amount of time by casting Dimension Door every 10 seconds or so. Or whatever.

So life's tough. Deal with it with all your per-encounter spells.

 

[Nifft]

Magic is already arbitrary.

Why can I only prepare spells 1/day as a Cleric? My god has fixed "office hours"?

Why can't a Sorcerer unlearn / relearn spells between adventures? Why can a Sorcerer unlearn / relearn spells between levels?

The game gives arbitrary powers, and the powers have arbitrary restrictions. So let's pick restrictions that suit our game. And in some cases, all else being equal, that means restrictions which feel more magical.

Cheers, -- N