Has the wave crested? (Bo9S)

Arkhandus said:
I really do prefer the standard D&D "per day" mechanics for general balancing, with "per encounter," "per session," or "per in-game hour" stuff being secondary and used just for certain kinds of mechanics.
While I also think that there should be a mix of at will, per encounter and per day abilities (I'm not particularly keen on per game session or per game hour abilities), I'd rather have per encounter as the basis for general balancing. This is because when balancing per day, you have two variables to consider: the number of encounters in a day, and the difficulty of each encounter. When balancing on a per encounter basis, you only have to consider encounter difficulty.

Also, as I mentioned previously, it is relatively easy to convert from per encounter abilities to per day abilities: all you have to do is to multiply the number of uses by the average number of encounters there will be in a day. On the other hand, it is not always easy to divide uses per day by the expected number of encounters.
 

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Not so much. Should a 17th-level Wizard be considered balanced with having 1 Wish/Gate/Meteor Swarm/Wail of the Banshee/Power Word Kill/Summon Monster IX per encounter, and as such 4 such spells per day when multiplying that to account for a typical adventuring day? Whereas a normal 17th-level Wizard actually only has maybe 1, 2, or at best (assuming obscene Int and school specialization) 3 such spells per day?

And really, getting in 1 PWK or similar in every encounter would probably, in and of itself, overshadow the warriors pretty badly, unless the encounters were rather long and drawn out. And then what about the 20th-level Wizard's allotment of 9th-level awesomeness per encounter/per day? I think Meteor Swarm kicks Strike of Perfect Clarity's butt, don't it?

Going with purely/primarily encounter-based balancing would either diminish the power or amount of cool for mages (who actually give up physical power and survivability) by weakening their spells, or overpower them by maintaining the same level of power but with inifnite reuseability each day.


Possible example: High-level evil wizard flies over a town, casts Time Stop, then releases several Delayed Blast Fireballs or similar. TS ends, and he flies back out of the town, massive explosions blooming behind him after a few seconds. Wizard flies off to rest a few minutes, recouping his arcane energies. Then flies back and does it again, and again, and again. Town is a smoking heap of rubble one hour later, and high-level wizard continues his rampage until someone similarly high-level finds him and stops him, despite the wizard's access to mucho Teleportation magic, especially on an encounter-based mechanic.

In normal D&D, any wizard who tries such a thing will run out of real nasty explosions after the first big town or two that he obliterates, and will run low on teleports shortly afterward when escaping pursuers. Then he gets scry-buff-teleport-killed after he's used up most of his best mojo, assuming nobody managed to stop him earlier, since he'd have limited battle magic to bring to bear.


Also, how would you balance healing magic this way? If it's per encounter, the healers would probably be able to fully heal the group after every battle, and the group would be unstoppable. That doesn't really create any dramatic tension, either.
 

Arkhandus said:
Not so much. Should a 17th-level Wizard be considered balanced with having 1 Wish/Gate/Meteor Swarm/Wail of the Banshee/Power Word Kill/Summon Monster IX per encounter, and as such 4 such spells per day when multiplying that to account for a typical adventuring day? Whereas a normal 17th-level Wizard actually only has maybe 1, 2, or at best (assuming obscene Int and school specialization) 3 such spells per day?

This is easily done by the strategem of blowing your load in every fight, and then resting. The onus is on the DM to force the pace, and that's not always easy to do without it feeling contrived or adversarial.

In normal D&D, any wizard who tries such a thing will run out of real nasty explosions after the first big town or two that he obliterates, and will run low on teleports shortly afterward when escaping pursuers. Then he gets scry-buff-teleport-killed after he's used up most of his best mojo, assuming nobody managed to stop him earlier, since he'd have limited battle magic to bring to bear.

If people could scry/buff/teleport the guy after 1 fight where he's blown his wad, they could also scry/buff/teleport him after 4 fights where he's followed the guidelines for expending resources. The ability to punish people via broken magic has nothing to do with it.

Also, how would you balance healing magic this way? If it's per encounter, the healers would probably be able to fully heal the group after every battle, and the group would be unstoppable. That doesn't really create any dramatic tension, either.

Why do people keep trotting out this furphy about lack of dramatic tension? If you are Nth level, an encounter of EL (N+4) will be pretty damn dramatic, full resources or no.
 

hong said:
Why do people keep trotting out this furphy about lack of dramatic tension? If you are Nth level, an encounter of EL (N+4) will be pretty damn dramatic, full resources or no.

Indeed. In fact, I will make the observation that at EL (N) - certainly when N>5 or so - there are certain monsters that can kill PCs outright if they begin the combat with less than full hp.

What is quite interesting is the use of healing magic *within* combat - I did so extensively with my Radiant Servant of Pelor to keep our high-level barbarian going... I disliked how it required all of my actions.

Cheers!
 

Arkhandus said:
Not so much. Should a 17th-level Wizard be considered balanced with having 1 Wish/Gate/Meteor Swarm/Wail of the Banshee/Power Word Kill/Summon Monster IX per encounter, and as such 4 such spells per day when multiplying that to account for a typical adventuring day? Whereas a normal 17th-level Wizard actually only has maybe 1, 2, or at best (assuming obscene Int and school specialization) 3 such spells per day?

And really, getting in 1 PWK or similar in every encounter would probably, in and of itself, overshadow the warriors pretty badly, unless the encounters were rather long and drawn out. And then what about the 20th-level Wizard's allotment of 9th-level awesomeness per encounter/per day? I think Meteor Swarm kicks Strike of Perfect Clarity's butt, don't it?

Going with purely/primarily encounter-based balancing would either diminish the power or amount of cool for mages (who actually give up physical power and survivability) by weakening their spells, or overpower them by maintaining the same level of power but with inifnite reuseability each day.
Under a per encounter balancing system, a 17th-level wizard will probably not be able to use the equivalent of what is currently a 9th-level spell once per encounter. I'm sure that there is some middling point between nerfed wizard and overpowered wizard where a wizard with a per-encounter 9th-level spell is more or less the equal of a warblade with a per-encounter 9th-level maneuver.

Also, how would you balance healing magic this way? If it's per encounter, the healers would probably be able to fully heal the group after every battle, and the group would be unstoppable. That doesn't really create any dramatic tension, either.
One simple idea I've had along these lines is a VP/hp system. At the start of each encounter, each character gets VP equal to his full normal hp. When he is damaged in combat, he starts losing VP first, and when all he VP are expended, damage is taken off his hp. Most spells and effects that heal hp damage restore VP instead (this actually makes more sense, at least to me, for the Devoted Spirit healing maneuvers). Spells and effects that actually restore hp damage are rare, and probably should have a per day limit.

If you want to increase dramatic tension, you could couple this with some kind of condition track - perhaps characters are fatigued at less than half hp, and exhausted at less than one-quarter hp, or the amount of VP the characters get at the start of each fight is equal to their current hp, so that fights in which you take hp damage weaken you in subsequent fights.
 

My single massive problem with per-encounter abilities (magic especially) is that it breaks horribly when non-combat abilities come into the picture. D&D's spell list is already enormously combat-focused, almost to the point of implausibility imho. Going to per-encounter magic would break this even further. How many times per day can a 3/encounter spell be used outside of an encounter environment? Any numerical answer to that question makes 'per-encounter' meaningless, but simply saying 'infinite' has massive implications for the implied setting. Take Wall of Stone as an example. It's damn useful outside of combat - a moderately industrious wizard could rebuild and reinforce an entire keep in an afternoon if he put his mind to it. A city might take a few months - and that's assuming there's only one guy doing it. Who'd be a builder under those circumstances? And what about Create Food and Water? Why would anyone bother to farm? Remove disease? There'd never be a plague again. And even thinking about how this would interact in a political setting with enchantments like Charm Person gives me a headache.

Have to admit, I like the per-encounter paradigm as a way of keeping things moving in an adventuring situation, and not compelling the PCs to run away and heal/recover spells every half an hour. It makes DMing a lot easier - I have a Dragon Shaman in my current group and the unlimited healing ability has been an absolute godsend. It's great not having to deal with how the various dungeon denizens react to the PC intrusion and beef up their security/traps/etc for next time. Per-scene abilities worked in World of Darkness because there's only a rather small number of critters than can use them (in relation to the total population of the world), and they have other external limitations on their use such as the need to keep hidden from humanity, and a 'mana' cost in blood points or whatever. But in D&D, where everyone knows magic exists and an awful lot of people can use it, I'm worried that going per-encounter would either require utility, non-combat magic to be weakened even further beyond its current wretched state, or would mean that Eberron-esque magitech would be pretty much standard in every setting, as an inevitable result of a lot of wizards with a lot of time on their hands and unlimited magic at their disposal. Not that I dislike Eberron-esque magitech, but it really doesn't fit in Krynn. Or Athas. Or Ravenloft...
 

humble minion said:
My single massive problem with per-encounter abilities (magic especially) is that it breaks horribly when non-combat abilities come into the picture. D&D's spell list is already enormously combat-focused, almost to the point of implausibility imho. Going to per-encounter magic would break this even further. How many times per day can a 3/encounter spell be used outside of an encounter environment? Any numerical answer to that question makes 'per-encounter' meaningless, but simply saying 'infinite' has massive implications for the implied setting. Take Wall of Stone as an example. It's damn useful outside of combat - a moderately industrious wizard could rebuild and reinforce an entire keep in an afternoon if he put his mind to it. A city might take a few months - and that's assuming there's only one guy doing it. Who'd be a builder under those circumstances? And what about Create Food and Water? Why would anyone bother to farm? Remove disease? There'd never be a plague again. And even thinking about how this would interact in a political setting with enchantments like Charm Person gives me a headache.
Of course, per encounter balancing means that there will be some changes needed to the spells. One simple fix that will solve quite a few of these problems is for any spell with a duration to continue to occupy its slot until its duration runs out, and to have few spells that create permanent effects instantaneously. Add in a restriction that a spellcaster can only maintain one of any spell of any kind, and that means that a wizard can only have one wall of stone around at any one time - good for sealing a breach in a wall in an emergency, but no real threat to the construction industry. If you want to retain the flavor of permanent magic-constructed walls of stone, you can tweak the spell in other ways: perhaps the caster must spend XP to make the wall of stone permanent, or the ritual to make it permanent requires a 24-hour ceremony to complete.

As for create food and water, perhaps the spell merely delays the onset of hunger and thirst (the spell will need renaming, though). A cleric who is keeping his companions alive despite the lack of food and water will need to continuously devote one of his spell slots to that (and in a per encounter system, it is likely that he will not have many spell slots). Incidentally, this is also a good way to control the number of active buffs - a spellcaster needs to maintain each buff in one of his spell slots, so that sets a natural limit on them.

A similar restriction for charm person means that each spellcaster can have only one person charmed at a time.

Remove disease is trickier. I doubt it would create much gameplay problems if allowed on a per encounter basis. The real issue is how it would affect society as a whole. As noted, it would significantly reduce the impact of a plague scenario. If the DM is okay with that (i.e. he does not intend to run any plague-themed adventures), the effects can be ignored. Otherwise, it could be reduced in power, e.g. it simply grants the target an extra saving throw against disease, and each target can only be affected by the spell once per day. Alternatively, perhaps the spellcaster can only remove the disease by absorbing it himself - a sacrifice that most clerics may be unwilling to make unless they had access to higher level spells that could cure the disease completely (such as heal).
 

FireLance said:
Under a per encounter balancing system, a 17th-level wizard will probably not be able to use the equivalent of what is currently a 9th-level spell once per encounter. I'm sure that there is some middling point between nerfed wizard and overpowered wizard where a wizard with a per-encounter 9th-level spell is more or less the equal of a warblade with a per-encounter 9th-level maneuver.

Hell, you could still have plot-device magic like gate, resurrection and whatnot: just make it take longer than a standard action to cast. Changing teleport to an hour and true res to 12 hours casting time, for instance, pretty much takes them out of the realm of per-encounter _and_ per-day balancing.
 

humble minion said:
My single massive problem with per-encounter abilities (magic especially) is that it breaks horribly when non-combat abilities come into the picture. D&D's spell list is already enormously combat-focused, almost to the point of implausibility imho. Going to per-encounter magic would break this even further.

Didn't we already have this argument when the warlock came out?
 

hong said:
Hell, you could still have plot-device magic like gate, resurrection and whatnot: just make it take longer than a standard action to cast. Changing teleport to an hour and true res to 12 hours casting time, for instance, pretty much takes them out of the realm of per-encounter _and_ per-day balancing.
Or restrict *when* the spells can be cast. I recall someone mentioned a house rule that all teleports resolved at midnight, so that was when all guards were on full alert and all important people made sure their basic defences were active. Similarly, it might only be possible to cast resurrection at dawn, or animate dead at twilight.
 

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