D&D 4E Hasbro, Greyhawk, and 4E speculation

[drothgery]

It is the percieved arrogance that what it takes for you to consider someone to be "solidly upper middle class", is to have an individual salary equal to almost twice the median salary that I would say is responsible for the reaction that you are seeing to your posts.

I guess I thought conventions were pretty standard on this. Upper middle class is pretty much 2-4 times median income, with truly wealthy kicking in above that. Heck, I live in a small one-bedroom apartment, drive a 3-year old Pontiac, don't have a lot saved, and still have some hefty student loan payments every month.

 

[CharlesRyan]

So as long as I'm fighting the good fight against faulty rumor assumptions (and blabbing more than I should about sensitive business stuff in a public forum), I'll tackle the salary issue as well.

It's tough to make a living in the hobby games business--believe me, I know: I was in the independent press side of things for 12 years. That said, it's not tough at WotC.

If any of WotC's designers want to come on EN World and discuss their salaries, well, that's their business and not mine. But to anyone trying to make rumor hay out of the "poor" pay at WotC, I'll tell you this: you're barking up the wrong tree.

 

[Pramas]

So, the $100K "bonus" Keith Baker got for Eberron, and the bonuses I've heard people like Sean (IIRC) being awarded don't qualify?

Both of those things were unique events that it's unlikely we'll ever see again. I would not hang my argument on them.

As I said, WotC pays well for the game industry, but you have to keep things in perspective. The average full time game industry pro makes perhaps $20,000 a year. Many make less than that. This is why people in the industry wince every time one of those "greedy publisher" threads gets going. It's entirely likely that someone just out of college will get a job that brings in more money that many seasoned industry vets make after a decade of effort.

 

[TwistedBishop]

The average full time game industry pro makes perhaps $20,000 a year. Many make less than that.

Is that how much you made at WotC?

 

[Dr. Harry]

I guess I thought conventions were pretty standard on this. Upper middle class is pretty much 2-4 times median income, with truly wealthy kicking in above that. Heck, I live in a small one-bedroom apartment, drive a 3-year old Pontiac, don't have a lot saved, and still have some hefty student loan payments every month.

What is the average salary, then? Does average get you to the lower middle class, or would that still be contemptibly poor?

I have nothing against you that you have a job that pays twice the national average, nor do I have anything against a game designer doing well for themselves, but to make the argument that they "deserve" to make twice what a cop, fireman, or teacher does is offensive (not that I think that was your explicit intent, but that *is* your argument).

As part of that, to treat those people who aren't making $70K as doing work that is "not respectable" is going to offend people.

 

[buzzard]

I don't know where you got these numbers. According to the US Census Bureau, real median household income for 2004 was $44,389 (see page 10 of the linked report). According to the data presented on page 12 (these refer to the page numbers as the .pdf file sees them), the median income is $40,798 for men and $31,223 for women.

U.S. Census Report: http://www.census.gov/prod/2005pubs/p60-229.pdf

If you want to go into greater detail, look for the average salaries of specific fields. It is the height of ignorance to say, as drothgary effectively said, "because I have a job in a very well-paying field, everyone else has that as well".

You would do well to read what I actually wrote before you replied.

Look at:
http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/4person.html

I got my numbers there, and as I stated, the data was for family income not individual. I said initially that Drothgar is claiming that a salary of $70K was normal was odd since that is quite close to what most families (not individuals) make. The implication is thus that $70K is closer to the earnings of two people.

buzzard

 

[qstor]

I disagree that it is possible for WotC to produce a hardcover incorporating the changes that has happened in the LG campaign. I was part of one of the regional triads for a period of time. The campaign has run for 5 years now, sure. But there have been about 29 regions (a 30th will be added soon, The Sultanate of Zeif). Each region produced 8 to 9 modules per year, plus there are 5 Metaregions which produce 8-9 adventures per year, and each year there are 20 Core adventures. Roughly 160 adventures produced per year... multiplied by 5 gives us about 800 adventures to wade through to find which ways the setting was changed.

Plus, all of the interactives, Con specific events, some regions produced 4 per year.

IIRC about 3 years ago Erik Mona posted a *rumor* about a Greyhawk hardback. At that time a lot of people hoped for a Greyhawk equal to the FRCS. And that's what I *believe* most people want or expect even today. Maybe one or 2 paragraphs on the changes to the region, some stat blocks of important NPC's like Bigby that can be used for non-RPGA DM
s, cut/edit the feats from Dragons #319 and #315, a few more details on the organizations in the LGG, a few prestige classes approved for the campaign and some mention the religious organizations across the Flanness and there...a full book like the FRCS!

I mean the Knights of the Hart Prestige classes IMHO should have been out in Year 1 and yet they've been held up by the Triads then went to R&D for a LONG time and they STILL aren't out for the players. A hardback would have and should still be a *perfect* place to put them in...There's nothing for the Old Lore Bards either. And yet all of these campaign wide groups from the LGG don't have a *campaign wide valid* writeup.

I'll get off my soapbox now

Mike

 

[buzzard]

I guess I thought conventions were pretty standard on this. Upper middle class is pretty much 2-4 times median income, with truly wealthy kicking in above that. Heck, I live in a small one-bedroom apartment, drive a 3-year old Pontiac, don't have a lot saved, and still have some hefty student loan payments every month.

Well given that you live in an area where the cost of living is extremely high, you should expect a hefty income. While California, in general, is only slightly above the national median for incomes, certain areas in that state are as expensive to live as anywhere in the country.

If you had the salary you cite and lived in, say, Wisconsin, you would live like a king.

buzzard

 

[Dr. Harry]

You would do well to read what I actually wrote before you replied.

Look at:
http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/4person.html

I got my numbers there, and as I stated, the data was for family income not individual. I said initially that Drothgar is claiming that a salary of $70K was normal was odd since that is quite close to what most families (not individuals) make. The implication is thus that $70K is closer to the earnings of two people.

buzzard

Buzzard,

1) That's what I wrote, and that's why I provided my link. Thank you for posting your link. Why there is a discrepiancy in ~20k between average household income and average 4-person household, I don't know, unless the effect of individual households and large households changes the numbers by that much. In any event, the 4-person household seems to be at the peak of household income, for a variety of reasons, and so a bad example.

1b) By looking at the 2004 data, it is clear that income (in 2004 dollars) stagnated, even decreasing by a bit, from 2003 to 2004.

2) I recognized that you had cited family statistics, that's why I got individual statistics, as I feel that they are more germane.

3) If you are offended by the last sentence, note that I specificall referneced drothgary's argument, not anything that you said.

4) I read everything that you wrote, I think that the data that I found was more germane to the case at hand. What is it that you disagree with?

 

[Vigilance]

What's disrepectful about claiming that an industry where it's best people make middle-class salaries at best may have problems?

I'm sorry, I don't get it. Saying that game writers are seriously underpaid is a bad thing?

People dont become writers of any kind, especially game writers, because they want to get rich.

Id be willing to guess that most Harlequin Romance writers make less than 70K. Is that business struggling?

There's a reason why writers are so thrilled when one of their books gets auctioned for a movie: they get a real payday.

Most writers live for a year on a 10K advance if they're lucky. And keep in mind they have to live on that until they finish a NOVEL. If that's two years, they're making 5K a year. Is the entire novel publishing business struggling?

Chuck