Haste, should it age you?

[hong]

I have, and it was not intellectually unrewarding (or in XP/GP either ).

Not that there's anything wrong with being an XP sink, of course.

If anything, there is a risk that the highly advanced character gets bored.

With babysitting everyone else? True.

A player whose character is nearly or always hasted can actually get bored, doing everything while it seems like the other party members are just standing around.

Correct. The group should junk the unproductive members post-haste, pun fully intended.

This is not a discussion of party balance, though.

Then why did you start it?

I frankly don't see the problem with Speed armor as it was. It was right on per the magic item system, and most high level characters either cast Mass Haste on a whim, or have a portable hole full of haste potions.

So, was this with your XP sink character?

How is that any more "balanced"? 'Fixing' speed armor does not cancel the fact that it duplicates one of the most common spells in the game.

Not that there's anything wrong with missing the point completely, of course.

To paraphrase something from one of the design articles in Dragon, if it is something that everybody wants all of the time, then it is simply too good. Haste sits this bill.

But speed armour doesn't? Not that there's anything wrong with that either, of course.

 

[hong]

I've playted in some totally unbalanced 2e campaigns; and a few 3e ones as well. It isn't fun being the most powerful character in the group (unless your idea of fun is using a Wish to get only the good cards from a Deck of Many Things when your DM actually allows it), and it's even less fun being the normal character when someone else is kicking @ss and taking names.

Balance aside, you should aim for a fun campaign, since this is only a game.

Yes, but see, the solar radiation in mkletch's world, in addition to changing the colour of the sky, has a subtle but significant effect on the meanings of words such as "fun" and "game".

 

[mirivor]

In response to LordAO, I don't recall saying that haste should age you. I was simply inquiring about everyone's feelings on haste and asking what I could do to fix it.

To all who like to belittle others or not allow room for an opinion from someone else, stay off of my posts. I prefer that they stay mature and friendly-like... so take your tunnel-vision elsewhere. You know who I am talking about...

 

[hong]

In response to LordAO, I don't recall saying that haste should age you. I was simply inquiring about everyone's feelings on haste and asking what I could do to fix it.

The consensus is that haste is very powerful for 3rd level, yes. The best way to fix it, IMO, is to replace the extra partial action with something else.

To all who like to belittle others or not allow room for an opinion from someone else, stay off of my posts. I prefer that they stay mature and friendly-like... so take your tunnel-vision elsewhere. You know who I am talking about...

Be glad I haven't assaulted the thread with my signature wanger spam.

 

[Storm Raven]

I think Haste is good the way it is, but there ought to be a fatigue penalty.

1d6 subdual damage per round?

1 Con damage is probably a bit steep, and smacks of a Corrupt spell.

Is that to remedy a perceived unbalance in the spell? Or just for flavor.

I'm not sure I see much evidence that it is that unbalanced. If I remember correctly, in the Abelared game Kyriel had Haste in her spellbook for most of the game, and it was cast what, three times total? Maybe four? If it was much better than other 3rd level spells I would have expected it to be used a lot more than that.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

IMO Haste should be 4th-level, and be a touch range spell.
In the hands of a sorcerer, it's more powerful than in the hands of a wizard. I would boost the level for sorcs, like Monte Cook did.

Yup, not every spellcaster uses the most powerful spells. Some wizards (and even sorcs) won't find Haste all that useful.

If you are going to inflict a penalty, it should occur immediately, and I don't think it should do any kind of damage (gnome wizards with toad familiars are common enough already )

 

[Stalker0]

Is that to remedy a perceived unbalance in the spell? Or just for flavor.

I'm not sure I see much evidence that it is that unbalanced. If I remember correctly, in the Abelared game Kyriel had Haste in her spellbook for most of the game, and it was cast what, three times total? Maybe four? If it was much better than other 3rd level spells I would have expected it to be used a lot more than that.

Just because a spell is unbalanced, doesn't mean every player will jump to use it, personally that gets boring. Part of the fun of being a wizard is figuring out cool new ways to use your spells.

Considering that haste is involved in almost every smackdown in existance, and considering that balance discussions of it come up ALL THE TIME, I definately agree it is one of the most powerful of the 3rd level spells, often times more powerful than 4th or 5th level spells.


Why is this? Because while many spells give a percentage increase to a player's power (such as GMW) haste DOUBLES their power. A 9th level spell in a round is very powerful, two 9th level spell are terribly powerful. While most spells give an incremental bonus that improves over time (often reaching some limit) haste just gets better and better the higher up you go.
Haste improves every aspect of a character in combat, their move, attack bonus (considering an extra attack is at your highest attack bonus), attack damage (more attacks), AC, spellcasting ability-the list goes on in on. And it never reaches a limit, once you have haste, every little bonus you give to your character is magnified by haste.

So yes I believe haste is a broken spell. I also think that many players recognize this, but keep haste as a good spell but don't abuse it. And many players abuse the hell out of it to create smackdowns. How often you use it doesn't matter, its what it can do while used.

Personally, I think modifying the extra partial action to just an extra attack is one way, but that makes it only soso for mages which I don't like. You could go the fatique route, giving subdual damage per round of use. I like this the best, it maintains the power of haste but it has a drawback.

But whatever you do, I believe the majority of players on the boards recognize the great power of haste, and that something should be done to curve it.

 

[Mulkhoran]

The reason for this post is that I feel that some uses of haste are unbalanced. Haste armor enhancement stands out real huge-like. Lets see... a +4 Speed enhancement on my weapon, or a +3 bonus on my armor for 3 times the effect... My friend has upped Haste to the 6th level and Mass Haste to 9th. We can't seem to find a way to balance Haste's power as a Magical Item ability with it's not-so-whacked regular spell ability. Know what I mean?

I'm quoting this particular post, because you seem to have left this statement behind in the subsequent conversation.

You say the regular spell ability is not-so-whacked, but you're concerned about balancing the magical item ability.

The FAQ suggests the 10 rounds a day limitation, standard action to activate, just like the boots. That's a way to balance the magical item ability, and really, one of the best ways. As it stands, Armor of Haste is severely out of whack with the rest of the armors in terms of defense, as you pointed out.

By the way, I completely agree with you on the whole errata/FAQ thing. If it's not official errata, it's nothing. There's a VERY GOOD REASON why this is critically important, but I won't get into it unless people start insisting the DnD FAQ is errata.

 

[Mulkhoran]

But whatever you do, I believe the majority of players on the boards recognize the great power of haste, and that something should be done to curve it.

Really? That's over 8,000 people you're speaking for.

As much as it will be universally reviled as beating a dead horse, I'll be HAPPY to post a poll in Rules. I'll suggest the wording here, in case there are any objections ahead of time:

Poll: Do you think Haste is too powerful as is?

a.) Yes, something should be done to curb it's power.

b.) No, we use it as is, and it's just fine.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

IMNSHO, the 3e Haste is a much better designed spell than 2e. The aging mechanics were laughably stupid.

Overall, Haste is less powerful in 3e than 1e/2e. The difference is Haste benefits spellcasters in 3e, when they did almost nothing for them before.

As someone who is slugging his way through a converted Against the Giants, I have noticed that physically tough creatures have more than twice HPs of their 1e brethren. (1e Hill Giant ~40 HP; 3e Hill Giant ~100 HP) Casting two Fireballs a round is not excessive in the context of the changes in the system.

Last night I saw a Hasted 8th level fighter/barbarian PC do 129 HPs of damage in an exceptional single round. This character's average damage jumps for ~50 to ~80 when Hasted. It is not obvious to me that Haste is not comparably useful for non-spellcasters as spellcasters.

Running out of spells is a real factor, too. If you are uncertain whether there will be more fighting later, it becomes necessary to pull out wands which are usually less powerful than your best spells. (Less of a problem for sorcerors, but that is the point of sorcerors, isn't it?)

I am not seeing a problem with 1st through 10th level PCs with Haste.

I can see there might be an issue at higher levels with 2 save or die spells per round.