Haste spell variant - how does this stack up?

[Plane Sailing]

I'm in the process of considering a variant of the Haste spell...

Do you think this would still work as a third level spell?

Benefits: Your increased speed give you +4 to AC, +4 to reflex saving throws, +4 to attack and double normal movement speed.

You don't recieve any extra actions in the round, nor can you cast extra spells.

Everything else is like the current spell.


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This would be less powerful for casters (don't get to use two spells per round) and less powerful for fighting types (don't get to move into position and unleash a full attack), and extends the idea of the "haste" bonus to AC into two other areas... both ones where the fact that the rest of the world is in slightly slow motion works to your advantage.

So what do you think? Would this be a fair swap when compared with the current haste spell?

Cheers

 

[Crothian]

Seems pretty good. Great Spring Attack Spell now.

 

[Plane Sailing]

An excellent defensive spell for wizards too... bolsters AC and a weak save, coupled with the equivalent of expeditious retreat.

 

[the Jester]

Not as good as the current version, but a lot of people will tell you that haste is currently too good.

Two spells per round or a full move and a full attack are devestating. A little more defense and a little more speed aren't, at least compared to that extra spell each round.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Let's compare to other spells/powers:

Psions get a 2nd-level power that gives +2 insight bonus to attacks. You're giving double that.
You're giving a +4 bonus to AC that stacks with pretty much everything.
You're giving Expeditious Retreat.
The Reflex+4 is negligible.

I'd put this at a 4th-level spell in its own right, since it's on the level of Polymorph Self. It's not as useful for the caster types, but I'd say it's even BETTER for the melee types. It's even approaching Tenser's Transformation levels in combat boosting.

Also, if you include the spell Rapid Strikes (2nd level) or the power Schism (3rd), you could cast that and your spell to get the original Haste, plus those other effects.

The vanilla Haste I also would move to 4th. The problem there is that if you look in T&B, all the "Mass" buffs are double the original spell's level, and 8th might be a bit high for Mass Haste. 7th?

 

[Anubis]

I usually don't like when people try to fix things that aren't broken, but in this case, I like it!

I think this variant IS a good 3rd-Level Spell (not 4th as some would suggest) seeing as it is easily on par with Fireball and Fly. It's a static spell, so these bonuses are quite nice.

I would add one thing, however, to make it perfect. To give it SOME effect on spellcasting, this spell could allow spells to be cast at the next increment down. Basically, if the original casting time was 1 action, you can cast as a move-equivilant (I WILL NOT make it a free action), if 1 round, the spell makes it a 1 action casting, if 1 minute, this makes it a 1 round casting, and so on and so forth. Sound good?

I would like to still have the original Haste somewhere, however. Maybe as a 6th-Level Spell. Call the 3rd-Level Version Speed or something. Slow counters and dispels Speed AND Haste. Mass Haste becomes an 8th Level Spell.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

You're kidding right? This doesn't come close to polymorph self. At moderate levels, polymorph self (or other) gives (in troll form)
Str 22, Dex 14, good con, good natural armor, reach, natural attacks, and the ability to use huge weapons.

For your typical 8th level fighter wielding a greatsword, that amounts to +1 to hit, +5 to damage, reach, +1 to reflex saves, and quite a significant bonus to armor class. If the fighter is designed for improved trip or to take advantage of attacks of opportunity, that is even more dramatic since large size makes tripping much easier and reach grants lots of AoOs. If the fighter doesn't normally have an 18 strength (for instance, an iconic fighter would have a 17 strength), that could amount to +2 to hit and +7 to damage.

For the typical wizard or fighter/wizard who might use polymorph self, the effect will be even more dramatic since the strength boost will mean that much more.

In no way does it come remotely close to Tenser's Transformation in terms of boosts:
(Tenser's Transformation IIRC=+1 BAB/2 clvls, +2d4 str, dex, +1d6/clvl temporary hit points, +4 natural armor and +5 competence bonus to fort saves. All told, at 11th level that amounts to an average (assuming net 6 point (avg five plus odd stat) stat gains) of:
+8 to hit (and one extra attack on full attack actions), +3 to +5 damage depending upon original strength and whether or not he's weilding a 2handed weapon, + 7 AC, +39 temporary hit points, +3 reflex saves, +5 fortitude saves, and weapon proficiencies.

That's significantly better than +4 to hit (double it), +4 to armor class (almost double), and +4 to reflex saves (double the total save bonus).

All told, this suggested haste variant certainly shouldn't be more than a third level spell. (I'm not sure I'd even take it at third level for my fighter/wizard--blink in general gives better bonusses (50% miss chance instead of +4 AC, denies opponents dex and gives +2 to hit instead of +4 to hit, half damage from area effects instead of +4 to reflex saves), has noncombat uses (walking through walls and doors), allows me to attack ethereal creatures, and has really nice synergy with expert tactician.) As a 2nd level spell, it would be a gimme (although I'd consider taking Rapid Strikes instead if it were permitted) but as a third level, it's relatively unattractive.

Let's compare to other spells/powers:

I'd put this at a 4th-level spell in its own right, since it's on the level of Polymorph Self. It's not as useful for the caster types, but I'd say it's even BETTER for the melee types. It's even approaching Tenser's Transformation levels in combat boosting.

Also, if you include the spell Rapid Strikes (2nd level) or the power Schism (3rd), you could cast that and your spell to get the original Haste, plus those other effects.

The vanilla Haste I also would move to 4th. The problem there is that if you look in T&B, all the "Mass" buffs are double the original spell's level, and 8th might be a bit high for Mass Haste. 7th?

 

[Stalker0]

I like the version a lot. And I think 3rd level is right where it needs to stay. Blink is great, but you get a miss chance as well. This provides defense/offense, better saves, and a great speed. Its a good way to replace haste.

 

[Spatzimaus]

I wasn't kidding when comparing to Polymorph Self. Polymorph spells are very good buff spells, statwise, but with drawbacks that keep them from being used in certain situations (polymorph into a Troll in town and people might get a bit... nervous). You're also limited to forms you have access to; if you've never seen a Troll, you can't do that one. Also, Polymorph Self is a self-only spell. Your spell is targettable. That right there is worth a level to me, and easily makes up for its short duration.
Your spell, on the other hand, has no drawbacks, seems to stack with everything (you didn't specify types for any bonuses), and can be cast on other people without the drawback Polymorph Other has.

Polymorph Self isn't exactly balanced as a 4th-level spell either, IMO, as shown by the fact that everyone and their brother wants it. But that's not really the point. You're comparing a targettable spell to a self-only one. Of course the self-only will be more powerful, since the only recipient won't be a combat machine already. See Tenser's Transformation; if you could cast that one on other people, how broken would it be?

If you want to make it a 3rd-level spell, all I think you need to do is clarify the stacking/types so that they share types with things people might already want. Make the AC be Deflection AC, the attack bonus be a competence bonus, the movement speed be enhancement bonus like Expeditious Retreat. I'd drop the reflex part.

It's just that this spell is something every tank wants, with no downside. Adding 4 on offense AND defense isn't a small thing; look at the level of the Natural Armor power, or Feats like Weapon Focus/Specialization, Dodge...

 

[Jeph]

I like tyhis new version of yours. 3rd level is good. However, it doesn't scale. You might want it to scale . . .

say, instead of flat-out +4 bonusses, make it +1, and then another +1 per 3 levels, max of +6 at 15th level. So, as soon as a Sorc takes it, it's +3. A Wiz would have to wait a level to get +3, but I think that +2 bonusses to atk/ac and ref are just fine for 5th level characters.