Have gamers ever been tolerant?

NoOneofConsequence said:
"Munchkin" I first heard about in an editorial by Gary Gygax in Dragon magazine about two years ago. It's not a term that was common in the Australian gaming community prior to that.

I disagree with this. I've been attending conventions in (Eastern) Australia since 1986, and I've heard the term Munchkin for a long time. In fact, I remember a team at conventions in Sydney in the early to mid 90s who called themselves Munchkins as their team name.

Anyway, to answer the original question about when did this elitism start - well, I first saw it at conventions in the late 80s. It was at about that time that games such as Vampire started gaining popularity.

It was also at this time that players at conventions expected to have their own room for each team, rather than a shared room or a booth.
 

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I think this thread will be targeted mostly by the extremist lot, from the title. However, I came here anyway, and I'm far from extremist.

I'm a little munchy by some people's standards. I embrace it as well. I like certain class/feat chains and such that make my character as badass as I can get, and I bring my roleplaying out through that. Others bring out thier characters abilities through roleplaying.

Some people though, throw out one element or the other. I'm not about that. I don't think that this game is entirely about getting into character, otherwise we wouldn't call ourselves game players. Also, the game isn't just about stats, or else I'd still be playing Diablo 2.

The two are intertwined nomatter how much you try and seperate them, otherwise your not even playing the same thing.

In my case, I decide how to play my character after I do the crunchy part, and I'm damn good at it. It's more efficient in the light that my abilities will show who I am equally well to my roleplaying.

If I did the opposite, I would be creating the concept for a character, and then I would figure out what classes and abilities fit. This if fine, and can be fantastic, but for me, it's less efficient.

I'm a little munchkinny, but I've never forgotten to role-play my characters ambitions, goals, attitude, ideals, and allignment. I like a lot of power, and I like to "be" my character. Nothing wrong with that.
 

Just an example of figuring out your characters attitude and merits after you do his stat-block:

I recently made a Psionic warrior with one of the biggest munchkin abilities I've ever used, which allowed me to mind-blast (albeit at the cost of ability points). I really played up the mind-over body element in game, and made sure everyone payed attention to just how serious I was, and how taxing the process was for me. During the second game session, I pulled out my Call of Cthulu book for no-apparent reason, and decided that since my character had drained his wisdom to 1 and been brought back 3 times in 1 day now, I was going to take a little insanity upon myself to make up for it. Through my munchy little mind blasts, I decided that my character would likely drive himself beyond crazy, and I applied that to my role-playing. I also adapted the crazed sensations to include being very over-confident that he can overcome physical limitations through mental discipline. I now meditate, fast, and study every chance I get, thereby increasing the playing qualities of my theme, meanwhile, I'm the parties 3rd best mage, and 3rd best fighter (of 5, making me the balanced middle man).
 

I've seen this power-gamer vs. roleplayer in action. A new gamiing store had opened up in our area. I spent alot of time there, and a lot of money initially. The owner asked me to join a group he was running in the store. He said that I could bring a character I had already played for while.

This is before 3rd Edition by the way. So I brought my Specialty Priest of Tempus, a real asskicker. They didn't have a cleric in the party. Now I had roled realitively well when I had made up this character; two 18's and no scores below 11. Well he took one look at it and said that he would not allow a character with any stat over 16 and that I would have to redice two of my other scoresbelow 9.

I was furious. The character was made by the rules. I had even asked him if he cared if the character was a specialty priest. he had given his okay. And the final straw was when he wanted to also take away several of my priests special powers. I lost my temper at this point.

He called me a power gamer and said that anyone who let their players have characters with stats above 16 was an idiot becuase it through the game balance off. I walked out of there and never went back. Less than a year later the store was out of business. First time I was ever glad to see a gaming store go.

People are different in their preference for campaigns. Other than that my experience has been very good. Yeah I've had some players that liked to be really powerful and smash everything in their path. But even these players enjoyed and even did well during other parts of the campaign.

My current group definitely leans towards the roleplaying aspect over fighting. But I'm not one to judge people because they might prefer a good fight over playing out a scene in a kings court.

For those of you who would like a look at the more humorous side of this check out Steve Jacksons "The Munchkin's Guide To Powergaming". Its a riot.
 

BiggusGeekus said:
Anytime you get more than twelve people in a room, folks start pointing out differences. It doesn't mean anything other than people like to squabble.

I beg to differ.

People are not good. They are inhernatly hateful. The meat do not inherit the Earth - they petty do. Life does not go to the strong - it goes to the cruel. Power does not corrupt or change a person - it just lets them be who they always wanted to be wishout fear of reprisal.

If the people who talk about hating munchkins had the ability to keep them from every playing an RPG - they would do it in a heart beat.

If the people who talk about hating gamers "who try to act everything thing out" and "get into character" had the ability to keep them from every playing an RPG - they would do it in a heart beat.

If the people who play just 3e D&D and talk about how bad the other systems - White Wolf, Paladium, etc. - had the ability to destoy those setting, drop the writers in hole and keep their fans from playing RPG - they would do it in a heart beat.

Because that is what people are. That is who people are.

They are just restained by social custom, law and a relative lack of power.
 

You've got it, creamsteak.

It takes a balance of both, and most people have that. Otherwise, they find drama class or diablo and go have fun in their way. :)

I like the fun of hacking things to pieces, and it'll always come second to the storyline to me. I've got no problem with heroes who are actually heroic, and I like the flawed characters drawing from their weakness. As long as you can somehow stick it into the story, it's all good. :)
 

Actually, I think this is the utopian days. In my memory, there has never been such a broad acceptance of RP styles nor such a mature discourse on RPing nor as many socially well developed and diverse people involved in the hobby. RPGs seem finally to have grown up.

If you go back to the early days of RPG's, the derision filled debate was already everywhere. Not only was there vicious debate about what we would consider broad philosophical issues, but there was vicious debate over what we would consider micro issues. Right at the top you had things like the DaveA and GaryG split.

Pretty much everyone back then seemed to think that there was basically one right way to play the game, and anyone that played it differently was not playing D&D. Gygax himself could appear quite scornful of anyone that extinsively modified 'his' rules (probably because he'd had good reason to on many occassions). A close reading of the Preface of the 1st ed. DMG is recommended for the historically courious.

Then you had the entrance of games like C&S, which was in many ways a D&D rip off, but which said, in essence, 'No, you aren't playing it right. You guys are power gaming, munchkiny, dungeon crawlers. You need to know whether your father was a blacksmith or a cooper or a cook before you are playing the game right!' D&D fans were quick to fire back with the same sort of barbs that we've seen tossed back and forth on the Harn vs. D20 threads here lately. So in short, the atmosphere has pretty always been intolerant.

And though I don't think it is as bad as it used to be (we're older and more diverse on average for one thing), I'm not sure that this latest 'tolerence' is really anything but another type of arrogance in disguise. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it is the gaming worlds version of 'Politically Correct'. 'Tolerence' is of course the foremost virtue lauded in our society, so it is only natural that it should come to the fore of virtues lauded in the gaming community. Yet it seems to me sometimes that the latest 'tolerent' crowd are elitists who like nothing more than to lord how superior they are to everyone else by being oh so 'tolerent' of everybodies gaming style. It is easy to be tolerent when you are in sheltered groups of mature socially adapted gamers enjoying themselves in whatever manner they enjoy themselves. This is not to say that the appropriate responce is to start ranting and raving like some TV evangelist stirring up a mob, but I wonder for all thier tolerence sometimes just how open these elite groups are to admiting new and younger players.

I for one do think that there is a difference between mature and immature play, and while I'm happy when 'munchkins' of any age have fun, I do hope (and encourage) that they out grow it. I do think that the game can be played well, because I've seen it and I've seen the difference.

Then again, there is usually far less difference between power gaming and role playing than we'd like to think, and often as not the two are not incompatible - nor should they be. Just because you are power gaming or hack and slashing doesn't mean you aren't role playing well, and conversely just because you aren't power gaming and hack and slashing doesn't mean you are a good role player. And among these various ingredients you can cook all sorts of good cakes suited to your tastes.
 

Duncan Haldane

Many apologies sir. I knew I'd get in trouble when I spoke for the whole of Australia. Living at the arse-end of the world over here in Perth, I really should have been less sweeping in my generalisations. Sorry


The Grumpy Celt

Man, I thought I was cynical. I won't waste my time trying to change your mind. I will just note though that, by and large, people do not want to exterminate all difference, only the difference which threatens them. Personally, I don't feel threatened by any styles of play and feel no particular enmity or need to eliminate. YMMV


Celebrim

Loved your reference to 1e DMG. The article in Dragon which supported the publication of the 1e DMG quoted Gary Gygax as saying that it would be "the definitive" D&D, erasing all the differences that existed in the hobby at the time. "Zieg Heil"

Speaking of early Dragon, if you think there's intolerance now, go read the letters section of early Dragon (called "Out on a Limb" in those days). The editor is brutally scornful of anyone who disagreed with the party line (TSR's party line). WotC are gumdrops and fairy bread compared with TSR in the early days.
 

The Grumpy Celt said:



People are not good. They are inhernatly hateful. The meat do not inherit the Earth - they petty do. Life does not go to the strong - it goes to the cruel. Power does not corrupt or change a person - it just lets them be who they always wanted to be wishout fear of reprisal...

Because that is what people are. That is who people are...

They are just restained by social custom, law and a relative lack of power.


Mark Twain, have you come back to haunt us?

No, wait, Mark Twain thought society was evil, not the innocent man... Maybe you're channeling Joseph Conrad instead...

Sorry, literature moment. Just spent hours doing lit. Go back to your business, nothing to see here :)
 

or to use that wretched, discriminatory term, "munchkins" (a word I consider to be the gaming equivalent of "nigger").

"Nigger"? Are you kidding?
Munchkinism refers to a persons mode of behaviour - not an inherent racial (or even cultural trait). It is like referring to an actor as a bit of a "ham." Now, there is nothing inherently wrong with being a ham actor. Some people enjoy that style of performance. Some people even enjoy watching it! Good for them. Personally, however, I don't think very much of Hammy actors, and I certainly don't enjoy performing alongside them. Similarly, I don't really enjoy the munchkin style of play of play. I find both it and the personalities of many of those who adhere to it rather grating.
 
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