D&D 5E Have Scorching Ray and eldritch blast been nerfed somehow with charisma?

[maraxion]

Hello.
Iv understood that Scorching Ray at one time was so every ray added your charisma modifyer, but now one the first ray? This is for sorcerers with "elemental affinity", as draconic bloodline who adds charisma to the damage.
(From the PH errata: Elemental Affinity (p. 102). The damagebonus applies to one damage roll of aspell, not multiple rolls.)

Also eldritch blast is quite similare to this setup, but havent heard anything about it. Im wondering if you add the charisma on all arrows if you have the warlock invocation "Agonizing blast" or just the first?

Can someone confirm some of this please?

Erratha:
https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/PH-Errata-V1.pdf

 

[Helldritch]

For both spell I ruled that you add your bonus once to each enemy hit. It means that with 3 enemies, you add your stat bonus to each bolt. With one enemy, you add your stat bonus only once.

Otherwise, both spells, would be a tad bit too powerful. (but eldritch blast would be quite over powered as it could lead to +25 dmg to single targets... way too much in my opinion.)

But I still have to see sage advice on these two spells.

 

[Savevsdeath]

For both spell I ruled that you add your bonus once to each enemy hit. It means that with 3 enemies, you add your stat bonus to each bolt. With one enemy, you add your stat bonus only once.

Otherwise, both spells, would be a tad bit too powerful. (but eldritch blast would be quite over powered as it could lead to +25 dmg to single targets... way too much in my opinion.)

But I still have to see sage advice on these two spells.

This makes Eldritch Blast less efficient and less worthwhile than investing in being good with a ranged weaoon like a longbow, which means its almost certainly too weak. Its intended to be a powerful option, because its one of the few options warlocks have. Don't nerf the at-will combat power of a class that has little else going for it.

 

[Helldritch]

This makes Eldritch Blast less efficient and less worthwhile than investing in being good with a ranged weaoon like a longbow, which means its almost certainly too weak. Its intended to be a powerful option, because its one of the few options warlocks have. Don't nerf the at-will combat power of a class that has little else going for it.

Well it is written: You add your cha bonus to dmg to the spell on a hit. I do understand your reasoning on that four blast means four hits. But warlock still have the best cantrip in eldritch blast. As I said earlier, +20 dmg is way better than what it should realisticaly be. 4d10 + 1d6 (hex) 21 average dmg +20 makes it 41! And if you add in repeling blast (who would not?) that means a 40' push back. At 41 dmg and 40' push back it means that no hand to hand combattant will ever get into melee with the warlock. Unless he takes a double move and our little warlock will just misty step away and start blasting again. Average Figther will have about 194 hp at 20th level. He will last 5 rounds.

Maybe its me, but I prefer that spell effects affects a target only once, not four times.
Then again, I would really like to see sage advice on that.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Hello.
Iv understood that Scorching Ray at one time was so every ray added your charisma modifyer, but now one the first ray? This is for sorcerers with "elemental affinity", as draconic bloodline who adds charisma to the damage.
(From the PH errata: Elemental Affinity (p. 102). The damagebonus applies to one damage roll of aspell, not multiple rolls.)

Also eldritch blast is quite similare to this setup, but havent heard anything about it. Im wondering if you add the charisma on all arrows if you have the warlock invocation "Agonizing blast" or just the first?

Can someone confirm some of this please?

Erratha:
https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/PH-Errata-V1.pdf

Per the errata, Elemental Affinity only applies to one damage roll. It doesn't necessarily have to be the first ray of scorching ray, but only one of the rays benefits according to the RAW. This is arguably less of a change and more of a clarification of intent (prior to the errata, it could have been read either way).

However, it has been confirmed that the warlock's agonizing blast invocation is intended to apply to each "ray" of eldritch blast. http://www.sageadvice.eu/tag/agonizing-blast/

The phrasing of agonizing blast is slightly different "...add you Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on a hit" compared to the pre-errata text of elemental affinity which read "...add your Charisma modifier to that damage". Agonizing damage applies to every hit (1d10 + Cha + 1d10 + Cha...), whereas elemental affinity applies once to the total damage irrespective of how that damage is distributed (2d6 + 2d6 + 2d6 + 2d6 + Cha). This is (obviously) even more apparent in the errata'd version of elemental affinity.

That said, I don't think it is unreasonable to rule that elemental affinity can apply once to each individual target (in other words, if you hit one target with your scorching ray you only add your Charisma modifier once, but if you hit four different targets you can add your Charisma modifier to the damage on each target once). That's based on the fact that if you cast burning hands or fireball the damage bonus from elemental affinity will apply to all of the targets (since the damage is only rolled once and then applied to everyone). That's certainly not RAW though, so it would be up to your DM.

 

[CapnZapp]

You're comparing apples and oranges.

Elemental Affinity <> Agonizing Blast

On one hand you are comparing, not Scorching Ray, but how Elemental Affinity affects that spell. And that has been to clarify that Elemental Affinity was only ever intended to add +5 damage (assuming a 20 Charisma) per turn.

On the other hand, you are comparing, not Eldritch Blast, but how Agonizing Blast affects that cantrip. It adds +5 damage to every blast for a possible +20 damage (assuming a 20 Charisma) per turn.

And there's nothing wrong with that. Agonizing Blast has nothing in common with Elemental Affinity. There is no reason they should or must work in similar ways.

Agonizing Blast only brings the Warlock up to fighter par. The sorcerer gets the bonus not only on Firebolt, but on Fireball too. Big difference.

 

[Helldritch]

Per the errata, Elemental Affinity only applies to one damage roll. It doesn't necessarily have to be the first ray of scorching ray, but only one of the rays benefits according to the RAW. This is arguably less of a change and more of a clarification of intent (prior to the errata, it could have been read either way).

However, it has been confirmed that the warlock's agonizing blast invocation is intended to apply to each "ray" of eldritch blast. http://www.sageadvice.eu/tag/agonizing-blast/

Well, I still think it is not the RAI as Crawford does say that he has that mechanic under watch.
In the rules it is stipulated that if you are affected simultenaously by similar effects, only the strongest of these effects will take place.

You have been squeezed between two fire walls. Do you take dmg 2x or simply the strongest?
Answer: Only the strongest, of course.

You are hit by three sword swing. Do you take dmg 3x st bonus and other only once?
Answer: 3x. As the attacks are not simultaneous.

By the same token, Eldtritch blasts are all simultaneous. That is why I would only add cha bonus once per targets that are hit. So would repeling blast only push the target 10' and not 40'. If you apply this 4 times, we will have warlocks all over the place very fast.

It is not because this ability is for a player that it should beat the general rule. I know that specific beats general but there is a limit to the power of what should be logical. I really think its not the RAI to apply cha bonus to all bolts when only one target is concerned. I think that in this very case we have an other example of poor wording.

 

[Ganymede81]

And there's nothing wrong with that. Agonizing Blast has nothing in common with Elemental Affinity. There is no reason they should or must work in similar ways.

That's a circular argument.

You're essentially saying they work differently because they are different, and that being different makes them different.

 

[Valetudo]

That's a circular argument.

You're essentially saying they work differently because they are different, and that being different makes them different.

yep its that simple. Thats why its funny that some people dont get it.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Well, I still think it is not the RAI as Crawford does say that he has that mechanic under watch.
In the rules it is stipulated that if you are affected simultenaously by similar effects, only the strongest of these effects will take place.

You have been squeezed between two fire walls. Do you take dmg 2x or simply the strongest?
Answer: Only the strongest, of course.

You are hit by three sword swing. Do you take dmg 3x st bonus and other only once?
Answer: 3x. As the attacks are not simultaneous.

By the same token, Eldtritch blasts are all simultaneous. That is why I would only add cha bonus once per targets that are hit. So would repeling blast only push the target 10' and not 40'. If you apply this 4 times, we will have warlocks all over the place very fast.

It is not because this ability is for a player that it should beat the general rule. I know that specific beats general but there is a limit to the power of what should be logical. I really think its not the RAI to apply cha bonus to all bolts when only one target is concerned. I think that in this very case we have an other example of poor wording.

If it was not the RAI, Crawford would almost certainly have said so. I believe that he said he was keeping an eye on it because he wasn't certain whether it was too powerful or not. Given that the post was made two years ago and there hasn't been any follow up to change the RAW, it seems probable that the designers decided it is not excessive.

I've played alongside warlocks (following RAW) and I can say from experience that no one at our table has found it to be excessive either. It allows the warlock to keep pace with a fighter (unless the fighter uses action surge), but that's it. Given that the warlock can't sling non-cantrip spells at the same rate as a sorcerer/wizard, it's pretty reasonable in play. Even with a 30' push (we're only around 14th level currently) it's not enough to keep the warlock from being attacked. At best it occasionally buys him some breathing room. But he can't count on always getting the full 30' push (I've seen rounds where he rolled terribly and didn't hit with a single "ray") and keeping one enemy out of reach doesn't guarantee that other enemies won't decide to go after him.

As for your complaint that it adds +20 damage and a 40' push, that's looking at it from a very narrow perspective. IF the warlock has used 2 of a possible 8 invocations to acquire both agonizing blast and repelling blast AND IF he is at least 17th level AND IF he hits will all 4 eldritch blast "rays" THEN he gets +20 damage and a 40' push. The warlock also has to have a 20 Charisma, but I'll grant that as a given by level 17+. Note that the warlock has used a significant percentage of his invocations AND is very high level AND that hitting with 4 "rays" is not going to happen every round.