D&D 5E Have we rebalanced the Champion Yet?

[Xeviat]

I'm getting ready to start a new campaign tomorrow (tomorrow is session 0), converting a 3E adventure to 5E, and as I'm want to do playing always gets me looking at player options and wanting to try balancing them better. In doing a little prepwork before working on a Barbarian rewrite (I want to steal some ideas from Pathfinder 2's Barbarian and not have the barbarian have uses of rage, because it feels weird for a barbarian to conserve rages; I always imagine a barbarian in a tophat and monocle).

So, that aside, I've come back to the Champion. Jeeze, where do I begin. I feel like the general consensus is that it's weak, but not like super weak.

Here's the damage progression for the Battle Master (x3 for 2 short rests and 1 long rest per day), just using the basic maneuvers. This doesn't take into account the other riders, or that reposte or precision attack could add more damage. We're just getting a baseline.

Level	Battle Master
3	4d8 (18) x3 = 54 Student of War
4	4d8 (18) x3 = 54
5	4d8 (18) x3 = 54
6	4d8 (18) x3 = 54
7	5d8 (22.5) x3 = 67.5 Know Your Enemy
8	5d8 (22.5) x3 = 67.5
9	5d8 (22.5) x3 = 67.5
10	5d10 (27.5) x3 = 82.5
11	5d10 (27.5) x3 = 82.5
12	5d10 (27.5) x3 = 82.5
13	5d10 (27.5) x3 = 82.5
14	5d10 (27.5) x3 = 82.5
15	7d10 (38.5) x3 = 115.5 Relentless
16	7d10 (38.5) x3 = 115.5
17	7d10 (38.5) x3 = 115.5
18	7d12 (45.5) x3 = 136.5
19	7d12 (45.5) x3 = 136.5
20	7d12 (45.5) x3 = 136.5

Without posting a full table, you can see it will take a lot of critical hits to add up to the Battle Master's extra damage. Luckily, that's like most of the battle Master's class, just their maneuvers, while the Champion gets a second fighting style (+1 AC seems like the safe option) and regeneration when bloodied below half-hp.

When comparing the Champion's damage to the Battle Master's damage (when the battle master is just putting all their dice into simple maneuvers and doesn't care about the effects of the riders), spreading their dice over 2 encounters per short rest, the Champion behind the battle master in damage. This is across a 3 round combat, assuming action surge is being split across 2 combats, the standard white room stuff. OH, and this is putting a greatsword in the champion and battle master's hands, to make the most of the higher crit (it would be further behind if using a smaller die).

Level	Difference
3	-7.5 (79%)
4	-7.5 (80%)
5	-6 (91%)
6	-6 (91%)
7	-8.3 (88%)
8	-8.3 (89%)
9	-8.3 (89%)
10	-10.8 (86%)
11	-9.4 (91%)
12	-9.4 (91%)
13	-9.4 (91%)
14	-9.4 (91%)
15	-10.5 (91%)
16	-10.5 (91%)
17	-9.3 (93%)
18	-12.8 (90%)
19	-12.8 (90%)
20	-9.4 (94%)

I'm not as concerned at 10th level and above, because the Champion can get a +1 AC bonus there (though someone could pick up, a ranged style to compliment their main style, or have defensive and protector) and it becomes more difficult to compare (Interestingly, I did a little side comparison for what if crits were just x2 damage, instead of only the dice, and it reduced the gap a bit; highest spike was at 10th level at -9.1, BUT 20th level was -1.4! The percentages also stay above 90% except at 3, 4, and 10)

As I was looking at the Battle Master, I put it side by side against the Eldritch Knight. I pretended the EK had a Smite ability as a way of simply valuing their spell slots. The BM ends up starting WAY higher than the EK up until 7th level, the EK runs only a little behind from 7th through 12th level, and then the EK stays ahead except at levels 15 and 18. The EK gets extra features other than their spell slots, and they can't actually Smite, but it was an interesting comparison.

It made me wonder if part of the solution to buffing the champion might mean nerfing the battle master from 3rd through 6th levels, and then maybe giving them some other features at higher levels to compare to the champion's 10th and 18th level features.

What are your thoughts?

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

I'm getting ready to start a new campaign tomorrow (tomorrow is session 0), converting a 3E adventure to 5E, and as I'm want to do playing always gets me looking at player options and wanting to try balancing them better. In doing a little prepwork before working on a Barbarian rewrite (I want to steal some ideas from Pathfinder 2's Barbarian and not have the barbarian have uses of rage, because it feels weird for a barbarian to conserve rages; I always imagine a barbarian in a tophat and monocle).

So, that aside, I've come back to the Champion. Jeeze, where do I begin. I feel like the general consensus is that it's weak, but not like super weak.

Here's the damage progression for the Battle Master (x3 for 2 short rests and 1 long rest per day), just using the basic maneuvers. This doesn't take into account the other riders, or that reposte or precision attack could add more damage. We're just getting a baseline.

Level	Battle Master
3	4d8 (18) x3 = 54 Student of War
4	4d8 (18) x3 = 54
5	4d8 (18) x3 = 54
6	4d8 (18) x3 = 54
7	5d8 (22.5) x3 = 67.5 Know Your Enemy
8	5d8 (22.5) x3 = 67.5
9	5d8 (22.5) x3 = 67.5
10	5d10 (27.5) x3 = 82.5
11	5d10 (27.5) x3 = 82.5
12	5d10 (27.5) x3 = 82.5
13	5d10 (27.5) x3 = 82.5
14	5d10 (27.5) x3 = 82.5
15	7d10 (38.5) x3 = 115.5 Relentless
16	7d10 (38.5) x3 = 115.5
17	7d10 (38.5) x3 = 115.5
18	7d12 (45.5) x3 = 136.5
19	7d12 (45.5) x3 = 136.5
20	7d12 (45.5) x3 = 136.5

Without posting a full table, you can see it will take a lot of critical hits to add up to the Battle Master's extra damage. Luckily, that's like most of the battle Master's class, just their maneuvers, while the Champion gets a second fighting style (+1 AC seems like the safe option) and regeneration when bloodied below half-hp.

When comparing the Champion's damage to the Battle Master's damage (when the battle master is just putting all their dice into simple maneuvers and doesn't care about the effects of the riders), spreading their dice over 2 encounters per short rest, the Champion behind the battle master in damage. This is across a 3 round combat, assuming action surge is being split across 2 combats, the standard white room stuff. OH, and this is putting a greatsword in the champion and battle master's hands, to make the most of the higher crit (it would be further behind if using a smaller die).

Level	Difference
3	-7.5 (79%)
4	-7.5 (80%)
5	-6 (91%)
6	-6 (91%)
7	-8.3 (88%)
8	-8.3 (89%)
9	-8.3 (89%)
10	-10.8 (86%)
11	-9.4 (91%)
12	-9.4 (91%)
13	-9.4 (91%)
14	-9.4 (91%)
15	-10.5 (91%)
16	-10.5 (91%)
17	-9.3 (93%)
18	-12.8 (90%)
19	-12.8 (90%)
20	-9.4 (94%)

I'm not as concerned at 10th level and above, because the Champion can get a +1 AC bonus there (though someone could pick up, a ranged style to compliment their main style, or have defensive and protector) and it becomes more difficult to compare (Interestingly, I did a little side comparison for what if crits were just x2 damage, instead of only the dice, and it reduced the gap a bit; highest spike was at 10th level at -9.1, BUT 20th level was -1.4! The percentages also stay above 90% except at 3, 4, and 10)

As I was looking at the Battle Master, I put it side by side against the Eldritch Knight. I pretended the EK had a Smite ability as a way of simply valuing their spell slots. The BM ends up starting WAY higher than the EK up until 7th level, the EK runs only a little behind from 7th through 12th level, and then the EK stays ahead except at levels 15 and 18. The EK gets extra features other than their spell slots, and they can't actually Smite, but it was an interesting comparison.

It made me wonder if part of the solution to buffing the champion might mean nerfing the battle master from 3rd through 6th levels, and then maybe giving them some other features at higher levels to compare to the champion's 10th and 18th level features.

What are your thoughts?

That's what I did, actually. I dropped one of there superiority dice and added an extra maneuver at low levels. Worked out just fine.

 

[Xeviat]

That's what I did, actually. I dropped one of there superiority dice and added an extra maneuver at low levels. Worked out just fine.

I'm gearing up to test using spellpoints, but a smaller amount and having them recover on a short rest. While I was doing that, I started noticing the difference between Battle Master superiority dice and Eldritch Knight Spell points was a lot more than I thought.

 

[commandercrud]

It's fine as-is. Leave it alone.

 

[Xeviat]

It's fine as-is. Leave it alone.

Clearly I don't believe so.

 

[cmad1977]

Completely unnecessary and a bit of a waste. Unless it works for you.

 

[NotAYakk]

A proposed.buff: when a Champion does an Action Surge, they get to make 1 additional weapon attack.

BM ends up being ~1.33 DPR better until level 5, where it falls to under 1 DPR. Then at 17 it ends up being 2-3 DPR behind.

(This assumes +X weapons at reasonable spots. Champion might do better if they got a flamingtongue to leverage crits a bit more. It also doesn't assume advantage, nor does it include BM using their dice when they crit.)

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

I've always thought that the champion is deliberately designed to be a bit weak so that it's an unattractive option for optimization-minded players who would probably be bored playing such a simple character anyway. While at the same time the champion is made for the type of player that doesn't want to make too many decisions in either character building or combat, and they probably won't even notice or care if their champion is a bit weaker than other fighters.

 

[DND_Reborn]

@Xeviat did you take into account when the BM rolls a critical hit the superiority dice are doubled as well?

Also, BMs already have a feature at 10th and 18th, their SD go up.

 

[Eubani]

I went with a simple add Proficiency bonus to weapon damage on a turn that the character uses action surge or second wind.