D&D 5E Have we rebalanced the Champion Yet?

[fearsomepirate]

Fighters don't need more sub-classes than Battle Master and Eldritch Knight. They cover all that we need.

The reason Champion exists is a large contingent of players wanted a Fighter archetype that didn't have abstract expendable resources like Superiority Dice, but just flat, passive mechanics. IIRC Mearls said he was surprised by this, he figured everybody wanted more stuff to mess with.

 

[Garthanos]

The reason Champion exists is a large contingent of players wanted a Fighter archetype that didn't have abstract expendable resources like Superiority Dice, but just flat, passive mechanics. IIRC Mearls said he was surprised by this, he figured everybody wanted more stuff to mess with.

Well I think it has been known that "not everybody" for a bit. There is a decided populous who are simplistically put at the table either for story not game and others with more social reasons or to enjoy raw visceral die rolling (the gamblers urge as I usually call it). So enter simpler crit fishing the class. I like the idea but the implementation maybe doesn't feel distinct.

 

[Garthanos]

So how does the Brute from UA measure up?

 

[Xeviat]

A few additional points:
1. Anything that modifies a champions attacks will be weaker than a battlemaster early and stronger than it later. There is no way around it
2. Which brings me to - You must think about the error tolerance. How close is close enough? To me a champion doing 20ish less damage per day at level 3-4 is acceptable. Is that for you? Him doing 50 more at level 20 is also acceptable.

Luckily, the BM goes from like 4d8 (18ish) to 7d12 (45ish) from 3rd to 18th.

But, this also brings me back to a separate discussion I've had about the BM starting off too high when compared to the Eldritch Knight. The disparity between the EK and BM wears off once they get their 7th level feature and 2nd level spells, but before that the BM has way more extra oomph. Reining in the early BM would go a long way to making the Champion feel like a better option at the lower levels. Really, I'm only concerned about sub 10th level, because at 10th and later the Champion starts getting unique things (like +1 AC and passive regeneration) that end up being a lot harder to directly compare.

As for what the balance threshold for be, that's a good question. I'd say +/-10% would be fair. But, mostly, I want that 3rd level feature to be worth a full feat, since that's just how classes are designed.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Well I think it has been known that "not everybody" for a bit. There is a decided populous who are simplistically put at the table either for story not game and others with more social reasons or to enjoy raw visceral die rolling (the gamblers urge as I usually call it). So enter simpler crit fishing the class. I like the idea but the implementation maybe doesn't feel distinct.

Personally, I usually DM, so when I do play, I want a break from managing a bunch of stuff. Champion's by far my favorite Fighter to play.

 

[Garthanos]

Personally, I usually DM, so when I do play, I want a break from managing a bunch of stuff. Champion's by far my favorite Fighter to play.

When I get to play I want to play something i can personally invest in (not much call for doing that with monsters) and monsters and npcs are relatively simple generally they lack individuality - so when I can I like elaborate character design choices and so I still want to feel those and subsequent in play choices are important ie the appeal is lost on me.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I don't see much individuality in Superiority Dice TBH. It's just another mechanic, a resource to manage that I don't really care about. You don't have a ton of options with Fighter anyway, it's not like one half-orc Great Weapon fighter differs from another all that much.

 

[Garthanos]

I don't see much individuality in Superiority Dice TBH.

There is an issue of not being able to use the abilities with any real frequency so there is that.

 

[Garthanos]

You don't have a ton of options with Fighter anyway, it's not like one half-orc Great Weapon fighter differs from another all that much.

So an eldritch knight half-orc Great Weapon fighter is identical to I get a crit once in a while more than you.... really?

 

[FrogReaver]

So an eldritch knight half-orc Great Weapon fighter is identical to I get a crit once in a while more than you.... really?

Please stop ignoring the context things were said in.