D&D 5E Have we rebalanced the Champion Yet?

[Garthanos]

Please stop ignoring the context things were said in.

I am not ignoring it I am pointing out the context is bigger - "You don't have a ton of options with Fighter anyway" - is not just applicable to one other subclass of fighter it is pointing out the context of what kind of character I want to choose to play when I am not DMing even for a half-orc great weapon fighter is not that narrow.

 

[FrogReaver]

I am not ignoring it I am pointing out the context is bigger - "You don't have a ton of options with Fighter anyway" - is not just applicable to one other subclass of fighter it is pointing out the context of what kind of character I want to choose to play when I am not DMing even for a half-orc great weapon fighter is not that narrow.

Context was in relation to battlemaster.

 

[Garthanos]

Context was in relation to battlemaster.

Not entirely and it was part of a sequence beginning here.

fearsomepirate said:
Personally, I usually DM, so when I do play, I want a break from managing a bunch of stuff. Champion's by far my favorite Fighter to play.

Me: When I get to play I want to play something i can personally invest in (not much call for doing that with monsters) and monsters and npcs are relatively simple generally they lack individuality - so when I can I like elaborate character design choices and so I still want to feel those and subsequent in play choices are important ie the appeal is lost on me.

His response was in the context of this sub conversation and was about the type of characters we want to play and him saying why he liked the Champion... and me not quite saying it reminds me a bit of playing a monster low options, low choices and low individuality.

I happen to actually agree the Champion is not very distinct from the BM once they enter play because the battlemasters infrequency of maneuver use makes them only hint at Warlords and Fencing masters while not really being one....

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Of course there are. Just as in 2e, there were games played without kits.

The argument is often wielded, in such a way, as to imply that games with feats are invalid or examples of builds, including feats, are abnormal.

Clearly, parity exists, in terms of numbers, between either style of game.
Both, are equally valid, is all I am stating.

Any change to a class, or new option, has to assume a featless game.

Further, a subclass isn’t strong if it’s only strong with a specific feat. If a subclass is only really strong in a specific build, it’s not a strong subclass.

 

[Todd Roybark]

No, the game needs to be balanced for both games with Feats and Without.
To me, that is a non controversial statement, that everyone would likely agree with.

doc, you may not. Apparently, you seem to be implying D&D does not have to be balanced for the 50% of the tables that use feats.

What is your opinion on the Arcane Archer? The Arcane Archer is the quintessential example of a subclass designed for a specific build....the magic bowman.
This is true wether a game uses feats or not.

The Fighter class is true to the 5e philosophy, that you should not need a build, or a subclass to be decent at the ‘core competencies’ that fall under a classes baliwick.

 

[FrogReaver]

No, the game needs to be balanced for both games with Feats and Without.
To me, that is a non controversial statement, that everyone would likely agree with.

It should have been. But it wasn't out of the gate. So best we can do is pick to balance around either feats or no feats.

 

[Xeviat]

I personally prefer to balance without feats, and then come back and try to make sure the feats are balanced against +2 to a primary ability score.

 

[DEFCON 1]

So you've all had almost two weeks, have you succeeded in doing what the thread title asked yet?

 

[Xeviat]

So you've all had almost two weeks, have you succeeded in doing what the thread title asked yet?

Actually, the thread title said "Have we yet?" not "I will balance the Champion in 2 weeks!"

I can't even get everyone to agree it's imbalanced.

 

[Garthanos]

Actually, the thread title said "Have we yet?" not "I will balance the Champion in 2 weeks!"

I can't even get everyone to agree it's imbalanced.

or by how much