Have you found Bo9S characters to outshine other classes?

[Vorput]

One thing I've noticed with a swordsage in the party. I know d20 rules pretty well, even when new spells/feats/whatever are introduced, I pick it up pretty quickly.

The swordsage in the party in our game last weekend confused the hell out of me. She said I'm in my "something" stance, charged a bad guy, rolled two d20s, consulted a book, said- hmmm- ok, I'll choose the high one then- then rolled a skill check (I think), rolled damage and added some sort of fire ability to the damage.

I had no idea what the heck was going on AT ALL! I considered asking about it, but generally try to do everything in my power not to slow down combat, and had forgotten about it till now. I'm assuming my DM knew what she was doing though, so knowing the rules seems very important (as always).

Vorp

 

[Rystil Arden]

One thing I've noticed with a swordsage in the party. I know d20 rules pretty well, even when new spells/feats/whatever are introduced, I pick it up pretty quickly.

The swordsage in the party in our game last weekend confused the hell out of me. She said I'm in my "something" stance, charged a bad guy, rolled two d20s, consulted a book, said- hmmm- ok, I'll choose the high one then- then rolled a skill check (I think), rolled damage and added some sort of fire ability to the damage.

I had no idea what the heck was going on AT ALL! I considered asking about it, but generally try to do everything in my power not to slow down combat, and had forgotten about it till now. I'm assuming my DM knew what she was doing though, so knowing the rules seems very important (as always).

Vorp

She was using a strike that let her roll twice and pick the higher roll, though if both hit and she picks the lower roll, she gets 1d6 extra cold damage. It gets easier once you wrap your head around it, but it is nearly impossible to follow if you don't have the book. That's one of many reasons why, for instance, I will never allow Bo9S into ENWorld's Living Eberron campaign--it's just too hostile to new GMs who want to run a game but don't have the book.

 

[Mort]

Just to clarify is the question do they outshine all other classes except the fighter, or do they outshine the other melee classes except the fighter?

I mean outshine any other classes in general. In other words, are they better at their niche than other classes are at theirs.

To further clarify, I said core fighter - what I meant was a fighter without access to PHB II, complete warrior, etc. To opine on my own question a fighter with access to all the splat books can keep up with a Bo9S character easily (they will however be more of a 1 trick pony, something I really dislike).

 

[Vorput]

She was using a strike that let her roll twice and pick the higher roll, though if both hit and she picks the lower roll, she gets 1d6 extra cold damage. It gets easier once you wrap your head around it, but it is nearly impossible to follow if you don't have the book. That's one of many reasons why, for instance, I will never allow Bo9S into ENWorld's Living Eberron campaign--it's just too hostile to new GMs who want to run a game but don't have the book.

Thanks a lot! That explains thing Must have been wrong about that skill-check i thought I saw.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I mean outshine any other classes in general. In other words, are they better at their niche than other classes are at theirs.

To further clarify, I said core fighter - what I meant was a fighter without access to PHB II, complete warrior, etc. To opine on my own question a fighter with access to all the splat books can keep up with a Bo9S character easily (they will however be more of a 1 trick pony, something I really dislike).

Our Fighter did not, I believe, use PHBII, and if he used Complete Warrior, he used it sparingly. His big claim to fame was his Iajutsu Master PrC using converted OA material. He was arguably better than the Bo9S guy, though in a very nova way, since after the first round when he did massive damage, it was a fight to do anything at all.

 

[gnfnrf]

In play, I have seen the following.

An Eberron kalashtar soulknife/swordsage (run from 9th to 12th level) who was not problematic at all... AFTER a houserule/clarification that Insightful Strike (the maneuver) crits 20/x2 when used, regardless of the weapon. In fact, this character was comparable in melee (a little behind, even) the shifter fighter.

A crusader/binder who was dropped at 5th level because he was too weak to play effectively. This is probably the fault of the binder.

A crusader 2/barbarian 8 who was considerably overpowered, using Thicket of Blades, potions of Enlarge Person, and a spiked chain. Some of his extra power was due to houserule bloodlines, but not all.

A 6th level warblade who is comparable in power to the 6th level knight in the same game.

--
gnfnrf

 

[Slaved]

I have seen no problems in play.

To gnfnrf though, why are you allowing Insightful Strike to critical at all? You replace all weapon damage with a skill check, there is no weapon damage left for the critical to work on.

 

[WhatGravitas]

I found this thread a good resource. And a friggin' good advertisment!

 

[iceifur]

In actual play, have you found Bo9S classes to overshadow other classes ...

Kind of. Only at low (4th-ish) levels, and only the Crusader. The combination of the crusader's delayed damage pool, the Martial Spirit stance, and the Stone Power feat made for a nasty, nasty tank at low levels. Once we leveled-up some, the playing field was a lot more even.

We never had any problems with the Warblade or Swordsage, though.

 

[Zaruthustran]

There's a swordsage/ninja in the campaign I'm running. He's very effective. Huge AC, good damage. The stance that makes adjacent targets "flanked" is very powerful--it's a blanket +2 to-hit for every party member, and opens up the target to sneak attack.

It can be tough keeping track of everything that he's doing, but we manage.

And he doesn't outpower the melee tank of the group (human ranger/dragon shaman). This guy uses a heavy spiked shield of bashing (or as I like to call it, a "one-handed greatsword that gives +3 to AC") and a spear, using Agile Shield Fighter to keep the penalties to -2/-2. He consistently hits for ~20 damage at 6th level.

We have found that the swordsage burns through maneuvers pretty quickly. Once they're all expended, he pretty impotent.