D&D 5E Healing in 5E

[The Crimson Binome]

I get what you are saying, but the point is that too many Williams and Linda fights are boring. I even upped all minions in my game to "tough minions" (1 hit bloodies, another hit kills, a critical kills, and a massive hit kills) because single hit minions were not only a joke. They were so much of a joke that some players found them to be annoying more than those same players felt victorious wading through a bunch of them.

I'll agree that 4E probably went too far in that direction, and made them too weak to serve their purpose. The ability to kill them through auto-hit powers that dealt trivial damage kind of made them feel like a boring exercise in bookkeeping, instead of the one-round distraction they were supposed to serve. And an all-minion fight would definitely be boring, since they have virtually no chance of winning and no real lasting repercussions.

I guess it's a matter of taste, though. I really like a fight where the possible outcomes are "complete victory" and "victory at a cost" rather than every fight being to the death/capture/unconsciousness.

I've ever run a Double Dragon style of session, as a way to mix things up during a Pathfinder game. (It didn't work as well as I'd intended, because I failed to account for the ludicrous amount of healing they give out in Pathfinder games.)

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm just sad that they'll get such a drastic difference in playability of the system just from having that one class there or not.

It's not exactly fun to have rounds of "Okay, who has to play the <insert unpopular class for this group>?"

In 1E through 3E games, I always handed out "Go to the well" items to the PCs. In those days, many of those were charged items like wands. So a party of 2nd level PCs might find a Wand of Fireball with 5 charges in it. Enough to help out when needed, but not enough to spam powerful attacks often. If the party was low on healing ability, I would often hand out go to the well healing items (like a small bag full of healing potions).

Also, IME, I've found that there are some players who love to do a ton of damage and some players who love to help the other players shine. An example is my nephew's girlfriend who in WoW, often plays a healer and she spends more time healing the other PCs than she does actually attacking the NPCs. Even when I offered to take over that role, she asked if she could do it instead cause she likes doing it (and she has played every class in the last 8 years, so it's not that she cannot handle other classes). Or the player who loves the Warlord and spams handing out basic attacks to the team striker.

I suspect that there will be other classes capable of healing in 5E such that the Cleric isn't required per se (although I think that Mearls did state that the iconic Cleric was also the iconic healer in D&D and they were keeping this for 5E IIRC). But if the Cleric is the most capable healer in 5E, either the group needs one, or I will be handing out go to the well items if we ever play 5E (my current group wants to stick with 4E).

 

[KarinsDad]

Personally, I don't consider any of those lead-up fights to be boring. There will be opportunities for the party to slip past or avoid some of them, which would end up being clever play. The more they avoid, the better the chance they could take down their nemesis. But she's not going to make it easy for them.

Just because minion fights are interesting to you does not mean that they are interesting to everyone.

 

[fjw70]

I'm curious what you'd do if they weren't kids. When I create a character, I want to increase the party's chance of survival. That would put me in a really weird place if I knew that a cleric would help the party most, but it would help the party even more if not playing a cleric meant everyone gets free healing.

I doubt I would do the same with my adult group. They are much more experienced and we would probably start at 3rd level.

I tailor my approach to the group.

 

[MerricB]

I suspect that there will be other classes capable of healing in 5E such that the Cleric isn't required per se (although I think that Mearls did state that the iconic Cleric was also the iconic healer in D&D and they were keeping this for 5E IIRC). But if the Cleric is the most capable healer in 5E, either the group needs one, or I will be handing out go to the well items if we ever play 5E (my current group wants to stick with 4E).

In my 7th level Dead in Thay games (using playtest rules) we have 20 players participating at one time and only one cleric... but the druids and bards also have full healing spells, and rangers and paladins have healing ability as well, so everything keeps going pretty well. Clerics can be better at healing than other classes (the Starter cleric gets a bonus of +2 hp healed per spell slot level used), but they're not alone as healers.

Also, don't forget that potions of healing are on the basic equipment list. Yes, they're 50 gold each (a non-trivial sum), but a party of new characters should be able to pool funds to get one or two of them. That 2d4+2 points of healing are really useful for continuing with the adventure when one character is badly wounded.

Cheers!

 

[MortalPlague]

Just because minion fights are interesting to you does not mean that they are interesting to everyone.

Sure. But it doesn't mean that nobody finds them interesting either.

On the topic of your original post, about the five minute workday, that hasn't been the case in the games I've played so far. There have been some forays into the wild where, due to bad dice and some poor strategy, the PCs have needed to return to town and lick their wounds. There have been just as many, if not more where the PCs have had the drop on the enemy and have dispatched them without taking any damage.

The way one approaches a fight is nearly as important as the fight itself. Surprise rounds are devastating in 5th Edition.

 

[KarinsDad]

There have been just as many, if not more where the PCs have had the drop on the enemy and have dispatched them without taking any damage.

The way one approaches a fight is nearly as important as the fight itself. Surprise rounds are devastating in 5th Edition.

I'm not quite understanding how a PC group often has surprise in 5E.

I get the fact that NPCs (at least in the playtest) had low hit points and could often be one shotted (i.e. the equivalent of minions in some ways). But, I do not see how PCs can often get surprise. For one thing, most heavier armored PCs get disadvantage for Stealth. Disadvantage is equivalent to a -5 to the roll (for all intents and purposes). Wizards might have a semi-decent Dex, but they do not get the Stealth skill. So, a typical party will probably only have one or two Stealthy members at most.

From what I can tell from the rules, if neither side of the combat tries to be stealthy, then the combat does not have surprise. The DM might rule that the Rogue can try to be stealthy and that only the Rogue gets to go in the surprise round, but the Cleric and Fighter both in Chainmail attempting Stealth checks are typically going to fail miserably to the point that the NPCs are aware of at least their presence.

Do the Cleric and Fighter (and possibly the Wizard) hang back during the surprise round so that they do not alert the enemies? If so, the Rogue goes in, one shots one foe, and backs away a little. Next round, initiatives determine if the NPCs swarm the Rogue or not. I'm not seeing how these tactics end up with PCs not taking damage.

Is there a rule that I am unaware of that gives surprise to one entire side or the other, even if they do not attempt Stealth rolls (or one that allows for a group skill roll)?


So getting back on topic, I do not see how surprise makes up for limited healing in 5E since surprise should rarely occur (if I am reading the rules correctly). Sure, there might be a kick down the door and everyone attacks type of surprise, but that tactic will not be available every time (i.e. either there is no door which hid the light and sounds of the PCs to kick down, or scenarios where the sturdy door doesn't go down and is barred from the other side or whatever).

 

[fba827]

I'm not quite understanding how a PC group often has surprise in 5E.

(Snip)

Is there a rule that I am unaware of that gives surprise to one entire side or the other, even if they do not attempt Stealth rolls (or one that allows for a group skill roll)?
.

There is a rule for group skill checks.
Basically the entire group tries and if at least half the group succeeds then the whole group does.

That said, I agree with you that it's hard to get surprise very often unless the party is purposely built with that in mind.

 

[MortalPlague]

I'm not quite understanding how a PC group often has surprise in 5E.

There is a rule for group skill checks.
Basically the entire group tries and if at least half the group succeeds then the whole group does.

For my groups, the group skill check has been very helpful on that front. Pair that with the fact that many monsters don't have good perception (although some keep pets with good perception), and you have a decent chance that a prepared party can manage surprise.

I should add that there is a low-level spell that isn't in Basic D&D which helps with group stealth, and at least one character in each of my games has made liberal use of it. So that may be skewing things a little.

 

[KarinsDad]

For my groups, the group skill check has been very helpful on that front. Pair that with the fact that many monsters don't have good perception (although some keep pets with good perception), and you have a decent chance that a prepared party can manage surprise.

I should add that there is a low-level spell that isn't in Basic D&D which helps with group stealth, and at least one character in each of my games has made liberal use of it. So that may be skewing things a little.

Thanks.

That does make it quite a bit easier. Still, a party of 5 with 2 heavily armored PCs would have about a 50/50 chance of success against similar leveled foes (I assume that group check requires 3 successes out of a 5 PC party). Course, the PCs also have to have a reason to be stealthy (in a dungeon or other small dangerous environment, know the general location of enemies, etc.)