Healing Surges innate Blessed band aids

[Imban]

D&D healing being based on the healer rather than the healee has been a wart in the system for 30 years. That goes doubly so if you believe damage is physical rather than unspecified mojo points. A 1st level guy might take 5 points damage and have huge wounds and be 1 point away from going down. A 20th level guy might take 50 points and have a cut on his cheek. Despite this, a single CLW spell can bring the 1st level guy back to perfect health, whereas it might take 10 such spells for the 20th level guy.

I've always believed damage is physical, but in a hilariously videogame-inspired way where the level-1 dude who's taken 5 points of damage has been run through by a shortsword and in need of medical attention, whereas the level-20 dude who's taken 5 points of damage has also been run through by a shortsword, but not really in need of medical attention in any meaningful way.

So how much a CLW heals hasn't been an issue for me, though I can definitely see how it might be an issue for some people. In any case, the problem my group had wasn't so much the amount - "Healing Surge heals 25% of your max HP" - so much as the amount of times it could be done - "You have 8 Healing Surges today, and after those are used up a Cleric can't heal you any more" as opposed to "The Cleric has 8 Cure (X) Wounds spells today, and after those are used up the Cleric can't heal people any more".

 

[Fallen Seraph]

So how much a CLW heals hasn't been an issue for me, though I can definitely see how it might be an issue for some people. In any case, the problem my group had wasn't so much the amount - "Healing Surge heals 25% of your max HP" - so much as the amount of times it could be done - "You have 8 Healing Surges today, and after those are used up a Cleric can't heal you any more" as opposed to "The Cleric has 8 Cure (X) Wounds spells today, and after those are used up the Cleric can't heal people any more".

Well I am viewing that particular aspect as the number of Healing Surges is the full amount a body can recover/keep fighting without needing time to recover (extended rest).

Healing spells and potions while they enable the body to recover and push past the limits one would normally have still put stress on the body, as such it would be actually detrimental to use spells/potions beyond the stress limit of the body.

So thus you can only use Healing spells/potions to that limit. However if that spell instead places the stresses of this divine-alteration on the caster (such as Lay on Hands) you can do it beyond that limit, since it isn't putting stress on the body of the person being healed.

 

[Lizard]

Healing surges make total sense if you describe all non-lethal wounds as minor damage, fatigue, pulled muscles, surface burns, and so on. The problem is that this limits the DMs vocabulary and constrains some of the color of the game. Requiring that all combat flavor text be limited to 'that which can be believably healed, without magic, overnight' put extra strain on the DM, as there's simply fewer adjectives and options. It's hardly impossible, but it also doesn't fit well with the goal of 'making the DMs life easier'.

I suppose if you either are, or play with, the type of DM whose entire combat reportoire is "You take 8 points...the orc takes 7 points...next round..." then this is a non-problem for you and you don't understand what all the fuss is about. Perhaps that's the majority of gamers. I don't know.

Again, I find the idea of moving the resource management aspect of healing from "How many cleric spell slots" to "how many individual healing surges" to be VERY interesting, and it opens up some great possibilities. There are aspects of the implementation of this idea which are, at best, problematic.

 

[Imban]

(snip)

I think this is a preference issue as opposed to a rationalization issue, since I'd hope the explanation you just stated is one that would immediately spring into everyone's minds once they read the mechanics. I, for one, don't have any difficulty seeing how to explain character-based limits on healing surges in a narrative, but it's a new way of doing things that goes away from how Every RPG Ever (tm) tends to handle healing, and the feeling seems to be that they shouldn't break what doesn't need to be fixed.

I'm personally hoping that, once I get the books, that I can figure out - or someone out there on the internets figures out for me - how best to excise the concept of healing surges from the game while altering the overall game balance as little as possible. We still might play with them, but it seems like it's going to be grouchily at this point. (Actually, that's an overall goal of a lot of the changes I plan on making - obviously the balance of individual tidbits might change, but I'd like the starting goal my houseruled system to be as compatible with Real Official 4e D&D as I can stand until I've at least played it enough to decide whether it's fun and balanced or a pile of trash.)

 

[Fallen Seraph]

While I agree, Lizard it can put a strain on somethings I think though it really is something that just needs sometime to get used to... Or you can stretch it a little.

Say for example, in the movie Dog Soldiers, near the end one of the soldiers who's guts are hanging out manages to fight even though only thing keeping him together is duck-tape. This may stretch beyond normal realism, but makes for a very cinematic sequence.

I would say then for him, he would have say... Half his Healing Surges or more spent by then, but since he is able to fight he is at full HP.

I think we DMs should be looking less at HP to determine the health of characters and their physical appearance and more the amount of Healing Surges left. This is the determining factor of how beat up they are/how much more they can take.

So a person with little or no Healing Surges left you could describe as being severely beaten up.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Where did get that from??????

Originally Posted by D'karr

On the other hand, I've had no problem coming up with in game justifications for what the effect represents.

When the ranger was on the ground unconscious and the paladin stepped up to him and used his Lay of Hands power, the ranger felt the divine power of faith that the paladin projected and was able to see that the situation was not lost and he was inspired (he recovered hit points). He got back up and kept fighting. The next time when he was unconscious on the ground and rolled a 20 on his recovery roll, he opened his eyes from unconsciousness and saw that his friends were in dire need of him, as they were getting their asses handed to them. The anger at the situation triggered his Second Wind, which he had not used yet, and he got back up and continued to fight on, saving the day.

Well, if all he needed was inspiring, then he wasn't hurt, so he had no reason NOT to be up and fighting, he was just depressed so he just lay down and accepted defeat. Not the kind of character I'd like to play. A hero would have kept on fighting til he was dead in the first place.

 

[pawsplay]

I haven't gone through the thread, so this has probably been said, but I don't see the difference between healing surges and simply giving PCs quadruple hit points (or whatever the accumulated surges add up to). I suspect, however, that having a stack of HP would upset the sense of verisimilitude more than the surge mechanic.

Well, heck, in 4e, they seem to have gone with the philosophy, "Let's do both."

 

[small pumpkin man]

I've always believed damage is physical, but in a hilariously videogame-inspired way where the level-1 dude who's taken 5 points of damage has been run through by a shortsword and in need of medical attention, whereas the level-20 dude who's taken 5 points of damage has also been run through by a shortsword, but not really in need of medical attention in any meaningful way.

So how much a CLW heals hasn't been an issue for me, though I can definitely see how it might be an issue for some people. In any case, the problem my group had wasn't so much the amount - "Healing Surge heals 25% of your max HP" - so much as the amount of times it could be done - "You have 8 Healing Surges today, and after those are used up a Cleric can't heal you any more" as opposed to "The Cleric has 8 Cure (X) Wounds spells today, and after those are used up the Cleric can't heal people any more".

Which implies to me that it's that Fighter can do magic, but that Clerics can do much less magic. I really like this idea, but I can see why some people would see it as "not D&D".

 

[Lacyon]

Again, I find the idea of moving the resource management aspect of healing from "How many cleric spell slots" to "how many individual healing surges" to be VERY interesting, and it opens up some great possibilities. There are aspects of the implementation of this idea which are, at best, problematic.

I'm not sure that most gamers will ultimately find any of these aspects all that problematic. Second Wind seems like a sub-par option in most combats (in a general sense, taking down the enemy faster is better than healing, unless you're getting close to a full-heal), so removing it as an option shouldn't be a huge problem for those who dislike it.

Likewise, there's nothing wrong with requiring a cleric for out-of-combat healing just like you have been for the last X years if your group is going to be playing with a cleric anyway. It's worked for the past 30 years of D&D.

However, I strongly suspect that one of the reasons clerics ended up getting really beefed up in 3E (both core and supplements) is because there are a lot of groups where nobody wants to play the heal-bot (particularly small groups, I think). Regardless of whether this is true or not, WotC definitely seems to have made it a design goal to explicity support cleric-less adventuring.

Once you make that a priority, I can't think of any better way to implement it than the healing surge/Second Wind mechanic.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I find it amusing that I both read this thread and watched the third episode of samurai Jack yesterday... The combination was fairly enlightening regarding the way 4E captures the spirit of cinematic fights. Seriously, if you want to watch the a fighter go through several phases of losing hitpoints (due to fatigue and gradual build-up of individually minor wounds), be put on the verge of taking a lethal blow, and then get up, shrug off his injuries, scream out his determination, and then fight with restored vigor again, then the third episode of Samurai Jack is a great example. I am pretty sure you could even describe one moment in the episode as a "five minute rest" between two encounters where his per-encounter resources are restored and he possibly gains a level.

Anyways, regarding healing surges... I think it might help some people to think about healing surges as an abstraction of the physical matter and "lifeforce" of a characters body. It is the combination of things like adrenaline, endorphins, blood platelets, blood cells, and other available resources available to the body that help close wounds, gives boosts of energy, shrug off pain, and keep going. Whether these get used up because of some shouts of encouragement, or direct manipulation by healing magic (a shift in the nature of healing magic away from magically conjuring up new flesh, but one I like), these resources are finite and really are being used up. When a character has exhausted their healing surges, these resources are simply used up until the body gets enough time, food, and sleep to replenish its stores. In some ways, this might be more simulationist than "magic makes it better magically, somehow".

Also, I don't really agree that limiting descriptions of combat injury to minor wounds is any kind of severe restriction. Certainly, if I was playing the game and the DM described a wound inflicted on my PC as someone spilling the PC's guts, I would probably more take it as a hint that the DM hates my PC than a cool description... I think things like describing the various ways a PC mitigates wounds and turns a certain deathblow into a minor scratch are a lot more fitting for heroes. Besides, minions will still die in a single blow, if you want to use a lot of gory descriptions.