Healing Surges

[Doctor Proctor]

PHB p279, Ongoing Damage: "You make a separate saving throw against each damage type."

You are suffering ongoing poison damage; you make a saving throw against the damage type, "poison".

-Hyp.

The point that the poster was trying to make is that you don't stack the damage. Just because you're already suffering from 5HP/turn damage doesn't mean you ramp it up to 10.

And using a similar mechanic you just say that after an extended rest you have x less surges until you take another extended rest. So this way, you can still have that mechanic of tracking it, but not punishing the player unnecessarily for losing all their surges.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The point that the poster was trying to make is that you don't stack the damage. Just because you're already suffering from 5HP/turn damage doesn't mean you ramp it up to 10.

Nobody's disputing that. I was taking issue with Gruns' assertion that getting poisoned twice means you need two successful saves to stop taking ongoing damage.

One save per type of ongoing damage, not one save per instance of the same type of ongoing damage, is what the rule says.

-Hyp.

 

[elecgraystone]

Yep, that was my point Hypersmurf. 15 creatures with an ongoing 5 damage poison could each sting you and you would only take 5 damage at the start of the turn and need to make only one save. The only way to get 'more' poisoned would be to have a larger value ongoing damage.

You don't get 'punished' just because the attack can no longer have an additional effect. If an attack hits you and causes prone, ongoing damage, blind or lose a surge and it can't take effect, the attacker doesn't get a bonus.

 

[Wormwood]

Creatures that have no healing surges remaining lose hit points equal to their level.

[edit: as pointed out by Mr. McMurray above. Read the whole thread next time Wormwood]

 

[Rafe]

Creatures that have no healing surges remaining lose hit points equal to their level.

[edit: as pointed out by Mr. McMurray above. Read the whole thread next time Wormwood]

Yup, I think that makes for a good ruling. It scales but isn't overwhelming.

My point, elecgraystone, is that an attack that takes a healing surge should still do something.

Let's face it... if you have a DM who tosses monsters that drain healing surges when he knows the group has been fighting fairly constantly and is low on healing surges, you're gaming with a sadist. Players who know their DM is a sadist and try to keep going when they're at, say, 4 healing surges are masochists.

 

[elecgraystone]

But my point Rafe is that an an attack that takes a healing surge DID do something up until you lost them all. I'd argue the same thing if someone was asking about scaling up ongoing damage with multiple poisonings just because it 'should still do something'. I think having no surges is more than enough penalty to the character and an additional one for a monster trying to drain something that isn't there is overly punitive and unneeded.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Yup, I think that makes for a good ruling. It scales but isn't overwhelming.

It's an adaptation of the hostile environment / starvation rules.

I think adding extra effects onto monster attacks is a jerk move, especially healing surge loss. Only one of the M&M monsters I saw that takes away healing surges has an additional effect when the target is out (Death Titan). Specifically, the target loses 1/2 their max hp if they don't have any healing surges left.

As a player, anything that takes away my healing surges is scary, to the point that I want it dead right now or I might run away. If I've now run out of healing surges, that's a terror to behold because I can't heal anymore; if they get through my hp (not really difficult for a tough encounter) then I'm toast. If the adventure allows me to, I'm going to take an extended rest as soon as I can. However, I've been in too many adventures where I desperately needed a day of rest but had to go fight the BBEG to think that that's actually an option most of the time.

 

[ricardo440]

Lots of people have said it doesn't say what happens if you lose a healing surge but have none to lose.

I thought it did. I thought it was "you lose HP equal to your level"

But I have no reference for that.

 

[ricardo440]

Ok, I found a reference
It is for endurance checks.

p159 DMG "Each time a character fails, he loses one healing surge. If a character has no healing surges left when he fails a check, he loses hit points equal to his level."

Edit: I now see another poster actually got there before me.

 

[the Jester]

There are a lot of effects that don't really stack - a marked character can't become double marked. An immobilized person hit by another immobilize is no worse off. If you're going to make draining surges have an additional effect when the target is already drained of surges, then what about all the other effects that aren't going to stack?

You're comparing apples to oranges here. Marked and immobilized are conditions; they are either on or off. You're immobilized or you're not. Healing surges are a resource that represents your vitality and ability to heal up. I definitely feel that something should happen if you're drained of a healing surge when you're out of them. I like the surge value in damage approach, but one that might be more appropriate is, the character doesn't heal after her next extended rest. She's still damaged, and must spend surges to recover.